D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[prabe]

Especially weird in games that seem to express the idea that all the PCs, spellcasters and non-spellcasters, have unique, nearly mythical abilities but some DMs only give magic spells a free pass but “mundane” abilities more scrutiny and required fictional buy-in.

I think some GMs don't have their suspension of disbelief falter when magic is involved, because it (usually) explicitly breaks the rules of how things work in the real world; many of the 2014 background features (and other "mundane" character abilities) at least seem to operate in more real-world ways, so they get more scrutiny, so GMs see (and focus on) how they wouldn't work, so they don't work.

I think this is closely related to what I've seen called the "guy at the gym" fallacy.

 

[soviet]

Nobody here is advocating a departure from the 5e rules at all.

Please stop representing all the views expressed in the thread when you know you can't see all the posts that have been made.

 

[prabe]

But the example being put forward is players deliberately making outrageous action declarations that ignore or misrepresent the fictional positioning in the hope that the GM will accede. Not so much in-character playing to win but out-of-character metagame playing to win.

Winning at chess by talking your opponent into resigning.

 

[Oofta]

Agreed, I just hope that all DMs keep this in mind when making calls. We've read about a few hypothetical situations in this thread that implies that there are DMs out there who seem to do that.

I have only encountered one DM like that in my life, and they were kind of a douche so it wasn't really a rules problem.

Bad DMs will be bad DMs. Good DMs will work to find ways for players to share the spotlight if that's what the player wants (some players don't). Meanwhile occasionally saying "no" applies to spells as well as other character features and the hypotheticals around here get blown way out of proportion and impact. I regularly play more mundane characters and sometimes wish there were a few more options.

But if I didn't accept that magic can sometimes overcome obstacles in ways that bypass some restrictions of logistics I'd play a different game.

 

[soviet]

Winning at chess by talking your opponent into resigning.

Moving a piece wrongly and hoping no-one notices.

 

[Maxperson]

But they are: seeking aid, sending messages, seeking out caravans, seeing if any commoners will provide a place to hide - these are all things a person can do.

Only if you make assumptions about the fiction that contradict the game rules.

There is no contradiction happening in any of our posts. The game rules allow everything we are saying.

Likewise, I can imagine the commoners refusing to hide someone, but the rules of the Folk Hero background mean that that never happens.

THIS, however, is a contradiction of the game rules. The Folk Hero background rules does not mean that it never happens. Quite the opposite. The rules explicitly give a condition where refusal will happen.

Also, I'm saying that the the imagination you describe is a contradiction of the rules in the background, not that the DM can't use the 5e rules to alter the Folk Hero background and get rid of the condition that causes commoners to refuse to hide the PC. That would not be a contradiction of rules.

 

[Maxperson]

Please stop representing all the views expressed in the thread when you know you can't see all the posts that have been made.

Nothing said by anyone who has blocked me exists. Period. I already told you that I will not ASSUME something has or has not been said by someone who has me blocked. So no, I'm not going to stop responding based on what I can see.

In any case, since the 5e rules say the DM can alter or change the rules as he desires, any changes of the rules are not an advocation of departure from the rules.

 

[Oofta]

When I read about old school D&D, I get the impression that the mythical dungeon underworld was more of a horror game, to be honest.

You bet your @$$ I'm gonna use that 10 foot pole and other trinkets and tools to study every inch of the room to find traps. And keep a pocket full of spare silver and food to distract monsters so I can run away.

According to the advice of Gygax, if your players do that they are being overly cautious. So come up with new traps and ways to f*** them over! Instead of just discussing options about approach to the game, if they listen at doors use earworms that lurk in keyholes just waiting for the careless adventurers to listen in!

While we never played this way when we started to play, there were some very adversarial DMs out there and there were always ways to make the dungeon ever more dangerous no matter what precautions were taken.

 

[Oofta]

There is a very important difference that you are eliding.

If a player believes something is nonsense and does it anyway, they are being a jerk.

If a DM believes something is nonsense, and stops the player from doing it, even if the player doesn’t think it’s nonsense, they are being a jerk.

This is the case even if you believe that the DM has the right or power to shut down anything.

So under exactly the same situation the player saying "yes" is being a jerk because they should say "no" but the DM saying "no" instead of "yes" is the jerk? Am I really reading that right?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is an interesting point.

A lot of people seem to assume that magic is basically “easy” mode to accomplish mundane tasks. In many D&D based systems, anyway. Complete any task without spending a spell slot? You gotta explain how it is done.

What’s weird is how effortless magic has become. I remember game systems where spells also took effort and risk. Sure you could save some time and physical / social effort, but the magic had other costs that were not trivial. Some spells in WFRP required ingredients that were rare or blatantly illegal.

Especially weird in games that seem to express the idea that all the PCs, spellcasters and non-spellcasters, have unique, nearly mythical abilities but some DMs only give magic spells a free pass but “mundane” abilities more scrutiny and required fictional buy-in.

I need to think about this some more.

Magic should ideally work the way you say, to some degree, but the players want easy and WotC wants their money.

Also, for my part I wouldn't say that PCs in my games nearly all have unique, nearly mythical abilities, at least none that any other character in the setting couldn't conceivably acquire.