Question regarding Copu de Gras and ray spells

[Greenfield]

Okay, here's the situation: You've managed to Hold Monster on something bloody awful. You want to end it now.

Scorching Ray is a targeted spell, so you can CDG with it. Auto hit, auto crit, triple damage.

But Scorching Ray is one of many spells that fire multiple bolts at once, at least at higher levels. Do you auto-hit/auto-crit all the bolts, or just the first one?

When calculating the Save for the critter, do you total all the bolts, or just count the first one?

Background: Last game our party of 7th/8th faced some 9 headed Cryo-Hydras (note the plural). Our winning tactic involved Haste, and the observation that they had a move of 20. In short, we ran. We ran *fast*.

These things had a Fast Heal of 19 per round, and 9 attacks per round on anyone foolish enough to actually try to fight them. Also Combat Reflexes, giving each head it's own AoO, so even approaching could be fatal. The only way we might have stopped them would be through some trick to Hold them or otherwise render them helpless, then CDG.

As it was, track shoes were the best solution available. But the situation (and a slow afternoon at the office) brought the question to mind.

 

[Jimlock]

SRD:
Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Per RAW, you cannot perform a CDG with a ranged touch attack.... (only bow and crossbow).

 

[Jimlock]

Still, if I was to allow all range attacks (all ranged weapons and spells), in the case of such spells I'd probably treat them as a sneak attack: Only the first attack counts.

RC p42
• A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action
other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift ac-
tion), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel (I'm 99% sure that is the right book) has what you need to be able to perform this action. It says it in the fancy print.

 

[Jimlock]

Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel (I'm 99% sure that is the right book) has what you need to be able to perform this action. It says it in the fancy print.

Correct.

You can deliver a coup de grace with a ray spell that deals hit point damage . You must be adjacent to your target to deliver the coup de grace

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Moreover, CDG is a full-round action that includes a specific attack.

Casting a spell is, usually, a standard action.

They're incompatible action types.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Moreover, CDG is a full-round action that includes a specific attack.

Casting a spell is, usually, a standard action.

They're incompatible action types.

So is a single attack with your melee/ranged weapon.

 

[Jimlock]

So is a single attack with your melee/ranged weapon.

Exactly.

A wizard armed with a touch attack spell on his hand... is considered armed.

Therefore it's totally possible to perform a CDG with a Shocking Grasp for example. Still one cannot do it with a ranged touch attack spell because by RAW the only ranged weapons one can use for a CDG is a bow or a crossbow.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Making an attack is also a standard action. My reading of CDG is that it's a full round action that subsumes into it another action that deals damage and is capable of landing a crit; ie, if it's an attack with a weapon. Rays deal damage in the same manner as weapons.

If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

Of course, there's also the RAI v RAW here. To my mind, it seems logic that if one can do it with a crossbow, one should be able to do it with a scorching ray-- and much more dramatically!

 

[Jimlock]

double post....