Question regarding Copu de Gras and ray spells

[Jimlock]

Making an attack is also a standard action. My reading of CDG is that it's a full round action that subsumes into it another action that deals damage and is capable of landing a crit; ie, if it's an attack with a weapon. Rays deal damage in the same manner as weapons.

Of course, there's also the RAI v RAW here. To my mind, it seems logic that if one can do it with a crossbow, one should be able to do it with a scorching ray-- and much more dramatically!

Even though that's RAI and not RAW as u say, I totally agree.

Some more info on the subject:
RC p132

WEAPONLIKE SPELLS
Developing attributes that support your spellcasting ability is an important aspect of how effective you are as a spellcaster. Such development occurs outside adventures and is most relevant when dealing with spells that function like weapons in certain respects. Any spell that requires an attack roll is weaponlike. Most weaponlike spells also deal some form of damage—lethal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or ability drain. Some bestow negative levels, or they grant conditions or penalties.
You can use some combat- enhancing feats to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells. For the purpose of taking combat-enhancing feats, weaponlike spells fall into two categories— ranged spells and touch spells. Ranged spells include those that re- quire ranged touch attack rolls, such as rays and hurled missile effects. This category also includes spells that generate effects that act as ranged weapons and require ranged attack rolls. Touch spells include any damage-dealing spells that have a range of touch.

 

[Jimlock]

Hmmm...
Still there are some ranged weapons that seem pretty inappropriate for a CDG:

Dart, Sling, Shuriken?

 

[PureGoldx58]

Hmmm...
Still there are some ranged weapons that seem pretty inappropriate for a CDG:

Dart, Sling, Shuriken?

Aim for their eyes?

 

[PureGoldx58]

Making an attack is also a standard action. My reading of CDG is that it's a full round action that subsumes into it another action that deals damage and is capable of landing a crit; ie, if it's an attack with a weapon. Rays deal damage in the same manner as weapons.

Of course, there's also the RAI v RAW here. To my mind, it seems logic that if one can do it with a crossbow, one should be able to do it with a scorching ray-- and much more dramatically!

I do agree, but that would also make the PrC Spellwarp Sniper lose something awesome, however since it would be a RAI ruling the Spellwarp (One of my favorite flavor PrCs) could get something prettier. Maybe threaten squares with a ray. Heh.

 

[Jimlock]

Aim for their eyes?

...I was thinking of something worse...

 

[PureGoldx58]

...I was thinking of something worse...

Genital shots work too!

 

[Jimlock]

I do agree, but that would also make the PrC Spellwarp Sniper lose something awesome, however since it would be a RAI ruling the Spellwarp (One of my favorite flavor PrCs) could get something prettier. Maybe threaten squares with a ray. Heh.

Or get to do CDG within 30ft?

the assassin can (death attack) with the appropriate spell... and within 60 feet!

 

[PureGoldx58]

Or get to do CDG within 30ft?

the assassin can (death attack) with the appropriate spell... and within 60 feet!

I always forget about the Assassin. That Evil requirement makes him almost never used in my groups.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So is a single attack with your melee/ranged weapon.

No, it isn't.

An "attack" comes from all kinds of sources - some of which (AoO) are not actions at all.

Charge is a full-round action that gives you an attack. Coup de Grace is another full-round action that grants you an attack.

Just like you can't take the Charge action and then cast a spell, you cannot take the Coup de Grace action and then cast a spell.

 

[Jimlock]

Moreover, CDG is a full-round action that includes a specific attack.

Casting a spell is, usually, a standard action.

They're incompatible action types.

So is a single attack with your melee/ranged weapon.

No, it isn't.

An "attack" comes from all kinds of sources - some of which (AoO) are not actions at all.

Charge is a full-round action that gives you an attack. Coup de Grace is another full-round action that grants you an attack.

Just like you can't take the Charge action and then cast a spell, you cannot take the Coup de Grace action and then cast a spell.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

Therefore, by RAW, one is totally capable of charging or doing a CDG (full-round actions), with a spell's melee touch attack in any round after the one he cast the spell (touch attack spell), because during those rounds he is not casting a spell... he is merely holding the charge.




Moreover, all melee touch attack spells allow the casting of the spell and an attack (spell's melee touch attack) without penalties in the same standard action.

Because of this, IMO it's natural to assume that the casting time for all melee touch attack spells is so minimal (because one is ALSO allowed a touch attack without penalties during the same standard action), that one can combine this action with a CDG without a problem.

I understand that the rules don't say this, but personally I don't see any difference between the first touch attack (the one combined with the casting of the spell) and all the others that might follow.