Quicken Spell and Spell-like now swift action!?

[Lord Pendragon]

If you are looking through the description and it says free action one has to wonder what exceptions it might have, and then read the rest to find the exception somewhere in the rules text.

But that's just it, you don't. There are only two exceptions. Quicken and Featherfall. So if it says free action and it's not Quicken or Featherfall, you're golden. Instead, now you see Immediate Action, and you have to find the explanation somewhere in the rules text for what flavor of Free Action that is.

But really, I'm just arguing a preference. I feel that four categories and two exceptions is simpler than six categories, three of which are virtually identical. I accept that others can (and clearly do ) feel exactly the opposite.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Say, while we're at it, I've been meaning to try to find a clarification to how Immediate Actions work. Let's use the example of an augmented Energy Adaptation.

Do you use the power
1. before an attack is made:
"The dragon takes a deep breath and..." or "The wizard casts a spell...spellcraft rolls?"

2. after the attack is made, but before damage dice are rolled:
"...breathes a gout of flame all over you." or "You are hit by a fireball that the wizard cast."

3. or after the dice are rolled:
"For forty hit points of fire damage"

Or do you have to interrupt before they even get going with the attack?

I ask because according to the way I read the rule, it seems to say #1...you have a reasonable idea that an attack is coming, but you might not know what the attack is yet, so you have to gamble. But there might be an argument for #2: you do need to choose an energy type to defend against, and most of the time with spellcasters (and psions especially, what with their selectable energy types) you don't know what that is until you're hit. Elans have two racial abilities that are immediate actions. The first raises saving throws (which works great with #1), but the second reduces damage. Does this mean that you can wait until you know how much damage you take before you reduce it (#3), or do you reduce, and then take damage hoping you reduced enough but not too much?

Any comments? Clarifications?

 

[Saeviomagy]

But that's just it, you don't. There are only two exceptions. Quicken and Featherfall. So if it says free action and it's not Quicken or Featherfall, you're golden. Instead, now you see Immediate Action, and you have to find the explanation somewhere in the rules text for what flavor of Free Action that is.

But really, I'm just arguing a preference. I feel that four categories and two exceptions is simpler than six categories, three of which are virtually identical. I accept that others can (and clearly do ) feel exactly the opposite.

Except that there are more than two exceptions. You can't say that it's just quickened spells or featherfall, because there are other abilities which are like quickened spells, and other spells which are like featherfall.

And frankly I think that "swift action" is easier than "just like a quickened spell", and "immediate action" is easier than "just like featherfall".

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Except that there are more than two exceptions. You can't say that it's just quickened spells or featherfall, because there are other abilities which are like quickened spells, and other spells which are like featherfall.

As I mentioned before, I don't use the XPH. Are there such abilities outside of its pages? If so, I'd love to know, because I'm not currently aware of them. Complete Warrior/Divine didn't seem to have any. Nor MMI or MMII... Unless I missed something, which is certainly possible...

 

[Scion]

Minis handbook has more.

3.5 psionics handbook has tons. Even if the only place they existed was in the psionics handbook, and they modified the rest of the system to help it out, it would still have a place. If for nothing else then just in case.

Streamlining the whole system, not just the part that you happen to use, is a good thing.

Much in the same way that shaken is a condition rather than continually stating the penalties. It saves time, effort, and in a very brief period of time the reader knows exactly what is going on.

Feather fall: immediate action
vs
Feather fall: free action, see text to find out the special rules

The first is just plain easier. Especially when taking into account the dozens of uses in the 3.5 psionics handbook.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The first is just plain easier. Especially when taking into account the dozens of uses in the 3.5 psionics handbook.

It's only easier if you have those extra dozens of uses. I don't use the XPH or MH, so it's not "just plain easier" for me. It's more complicated.

Though as I said a few posts up, I can see how it's easier for people who use the supplemental material that adds in extra powers/abilities that can be used as restricted free actions or not on your turn.p

Streamlining the whole system, not just the part that you happen to use, is a good thing.

I disagree with this. I don't think the Core Rules should be complicated on the off-chance you use every supplement printed. So unless Psionics and the content of the MH are made core, I don't want to see Immediate and Swift actions made core either. For me and DMs/players like me, it's more hassle than it's worth.

 

[Droid101]

It strikes me just as an easy to use simplification.

Much like they say 'shaken' instead of -2 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

If you are looking through the description and it says free action one has to wonder what exceptions it might have, and then read the rest to find the exception somewhere in the rules text.

Or they can have a simple, one word description that instantly tells you what it does.

Bravo, well put.

 

[AuraSeer]

It's more complicated.

You keep saying that, but you don't explain why.

I don't see any added complexity here. The rules are still exactly the same. The only addition is a label, "swift", which is a quick way of describing rules that already existed. And, as any programmer or mathematician will tell you, condensing a long description into a simple label is one of the best ways to make it more understandable.

You only need to look up the definition of "swift action" once. Since you're able to debate this topic, it's clear that you know the definition. Now, when a spell or ability refers to its use as "one swift action" you always know what it means. It's exactly the same as writing "one free action that counts toward your limit of one quickened spell per round," but takes up less space and is easier to read.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You keep saying that, but you don't explain why.

Let me see if I can.

You only need to look up the definition of "swift action" once.

Here is a major point of contention. You don't just have to look it up once. Swift and Immediate Actions are close enough in meaning (just slight variations of Free) that I often have to look them up again to determine which is which. Is Swift the one you can use on someone else's turn, or the one that you only get one of each round? Perhaps, for those of you who use many abilities that fall under each category, it is simpler. I do not and have not disputed this. But when there are only two exceptions, it's easier for each exception to be spelled out, than for each exception to be given its own name, which you then have to look up to see which exception has which mechanical meaning.

Since you're able to debate this topic, it's clear that you know the definition. Now, when a spell or ability refers to its use as "one swift action" you always know what it means. It's exactly the same as writing "one free action that counts toward your limit of one quickened spell per round," but takes up less space and is easier to read.

Again, if there were, say, two dozen spells which such a requirement, then yes it'd be easier. But when only one example of such a thing exists, then it becomes a needless overclassification.

 

[Deset Gled]

You don't just have to look it up once. Swift and Immediate Actions are close enough in meaning (just slight variations of Free) that I often have to look them up again to determine which is which.

To me, the naming scheme seems to make the differences fairly easy to remember. Immediate actions are the type of actions that you can do immediately. Swift actions are fast, but not so fast that they're free. Seems pretty simple.

Another thing that you have mentioned multiple times is that the core rules shouldn't be changed because of a specific supplement. I urge you to look at this from the point of a game designer, rather than a player. This new set of classifications opens up an amazing new venue for spells and other abilities that were otherwise very difficult and complex to create. This new classification is a standard that allows all further supplements created to follow the core rules, rather than having each one create their own messy and complex set of exceptions. Considering that the d20 system is designed with the OGL in mind, I think this is a great addition to the rules.