R&C Art, the Women of R&C

[Moon-Lancer]

I'm not a woman, but I know many female gamers who dislike boob armor. As Piratecat said, my personal experience isn't a large enough sample to base an argument on. My experience is with female gamers between the ages of 19 and 45.

thank you for your input. It would seem that we have had different experiences, so i can no longer say that my experiences are universal.

can you be more specific? do these girls play d&d only or do they play other games as well. do they larp? are they geeky female gamers or just casual players?

But i do wonder why many boob armor artists are female. It really makes the issue confusing.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

No - women and girls look at boob armor shots, and it clearly send then a message 'girls, in this game, the MEN do the work and you are just there to look sexy'.

do you know any girls that have gotten this kind of message from boob armor art? if so were they new to gaming?

 

[Piratecat]

Ah, there it is: Dragon #294.

This was the issue where Paizo decided to equalize the male cheesecake factor a little.

Incidentally, I personally like a lot of D&D art; chainmail bikinis are a longstanding staple of the genre. But I have had at least three female players who have actively disliked the art style, and another three or four who mocked it. Getting women into the game is a great idea in my opinion, and some art actively works against that.

(Incidentally, feel free to read through this train-wreck of a thread for the last time this conversation was held.)

 

[kennew142]

Moon-Lancer has a great point in all this... to put another spin on it, why must we always cater to "The Offended", who generally is a very small group of people compared to the whole. Women admire one another in a way that men cannot quite understand, because it's entirely platonic. A man does not look at a scantily clad man and say "Damn, that's a handsome man", as we do not recognize male beauty. Women, however, recognize feminine beauty and can appreciate each other's beauty.

Take some time to click around deviant art sometime and note the number of chainmail bikini pictures made by women.

Why must we always cater to those who read role-playing books to get their jollies?

There are some people who get turned off on the entire hobby (thinking it's only for horny teenage boys) by the fact that rpg artwork is dominated by exposed women in soft-core porn poses. Does anyone think that there is a would-be gamer anywhere who would say, "I would love to get into D&D, but there aren't enough pictures of half-naked women in boob-armor in the books!"

Is it necessary to have this kind of artwork in the game books? Does it bring anything to the gaming table? Why have D&D miniatures gone the other route, portraying both male and female characters in practical armor and clothing? I don't have any sales figures on me, but I believe I've heard somewhere that WotC is making a little bit of money on them.

Lot's of women have no problem with this sort of art, but many others do. Why is it necessary to have this kind of art providing the face of our hobby, when it is so divisive? If you don't think it is divisive, just look at the reaction on just about any gaming forum when the subject comes up.

 

[Piratecat]

By the way, a heads up: this is a divisive issue. We've been pretty good so far about avoiding insults against people who disagree with us. Please, keep it that way. Report problem posts - using the tiny button in the bottom left of every post - if you see any exceptions crop up.

 

[perchy]

the offended complain loud, the supporters cheer quietly

Women should be an option for play in any game. and if anyone really wants to play a homely woman, well, grats. Now we've accepted women are going to be attactive, it's just down to personal taste with how much armour they're ok to wear before they just become sex objects.

I think the teifling on the 4e PHB is right on that line. You could make the case for a bit too much thigh, but i'd tell you to sod off.

Most 4e art is like this, the women are sexy, but they ain't shoving boobs in your face.

And out of the 4 gamer girls I asked about this, 3 agree'd with me. and I know the one that didn't agree with me is in to bondage secretly.

you could probably find a group where this is not the case, but equally you could find a place where "bloody" is a swear word.

 

[kennew142]

thank you for your input. It would seem that we have had different experiences, so i can no longer say that my experiences are universal.

can you be more specific? do these girls play d&d only or do they play other games as well. do they larp? are they geeky female gamers or just casual players?

But i do wonder why many boob armor artists are female. It really makes the issue confusing.

I organize gaming at science-fiction conventions. I am talking about women of all age ranges. Some play D&D, other GURPS, HERO, White Wolf games etc.... Some are fantasy artists. Some are science-fiction or fantasy authors. Some are dedicated gamers, while others are casual gamers. Yes, I have even heard the artwork used as a reason by some women as to why they don't game.

My circle only includes a few hundred in toto, so it's not a decisive sample. I will also add that some of the women like this style of art. It is my experience, however, that the number of women who actively like this style of art (as opposed to those who merely tolerate it) is somewhat small.

 

[Rechan]

and again "do you know any woman that play d&d and dislike boob armor?"

I do.

In fact, I remember one specifically complaining about the races spread in the 3e PHB. That all the women are in bras, and yet all of the men (sans the half-orc) have their chests fully covered.

I've seen countless female gamers on the forums complaining too. Just go on Astrid's Parlor on the WotC boards and ask.

Hell, in this very thread on page 2, Gloombunny (an actual female gamer) said:

I absolutely despise bikinimail, cleavage windows on breastplates, and all the other slutty armor crap.

 

[resistor]

Having just watched 300, that image kind of makes me go play a Spartan!

In all seriousness, though, I don't see what's objectionable about it. I mean, it's not as eye-candy-ish to me, a straight male, but it's certainly a reasonable phenotype for male fantasy heroes. I could imagine playing him.

 

[Barastrondo]

To these people, have you ever met a gamer girl who was offended seeing boob armor? I'm going to say that most girls with the pre disposition to play d&d are not offended by boob armor or sexy babes, and in fact want to see more then whats already in d&d.

I married one, and she's the most devoted gamer I know. She also does art direction, and while she likes well-done and tasteful depictions of the female body, "boob armor" does not qualify. (It's the sort of thing that makes me aware of the difference between illustration and cheesecake.) Most of the women I know aren't thrilled about the fashion statement (such as it is) in general; my WoW guild is filled with women who are not at all thrilled about the fact that their armor is cut differently than the exact same armor on a male.

I'll say I know more women who aren't "offended" by boob armor (or "hookerplate"), but they're irritated if it seems to suggest that their characters should dress much the same (such as in WoW, or in illustrations in game rulebooks that imply "This is a player character.").

i think the main reason guys don't like boob armor is because of embarrassment or because it distracts them

Depends on the context. I don't like it in RPG art if there's any indication we're meant to take the characters seriously; the whole "it protects because it's distracting" has always seemed like a feeble rationalization that's embarrassing in its own right (seriously, do such campaigns never feature zombies or giant insects or even straight male sexually compatible warriors with a fragment of self-discipline?). There's just such a different context between a person in fandom looking to attract attention at a convention and a warrior slogging through a sewer full of rotting undead, you know?