Ravnica Table of Contents & More

Thank you.

 

[Jester David]

It is more than the trade dress, but for marketing purposes the trade dress is extremely important. In other terms, D&D would include things like the 9-point alignment system, or 9 levels of spells, or the Class sysyte, all things that will be in this D&D book.

So in other words, with no interior content changes, this is a D&D book and is NOT a Magic book:
View attachment 102638

But this would be a MtG book and NOT a Dungeons & Dragons book:
View attachment 102639

Because, while 9-point alignment, 9 levels of spells, and a class system are important, this is a D&D book but has none of that:
View attachment 102640
(Ignoring that 4e had neither 9 levels of spells or alignment...)

 

[cbwjm]

"Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post.
And Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
And the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”

Arguing it is a Ravnica book and not a MtG book feels like arguing a Dragonlance product isn’t a D&D product.

It’s not a MtG card game product but it is very much part of the same brand"

It's not surprising MtG is mentioned since this is the origin of Ravnica, but this book is still not part of the MtG meta setting, it's been adapted for use for DnD and the DnD meta setting so yes, this is not a MtG product, it's a DnD product.

 

[cbwjm]

It certainly seems to be true that all of the concepts in the book are expressed in D&D terms, without adding any significant new sub-systems of game mechanics to expand D&D with "Magic flavor." However, despite D&D players collectively asking for updates to D&D settings like Planescape and Dark Sun for years now, WotC chose instead to include Ravnica, because it is a Magic property. Yes, it is a D&D book, but it is one seemingly designed to sell D&D to Magic customers, and perhaps the other way around, too.

I wonder, when they announce the Magic cards with Elminster and Drizzit, will you be as certain that those are Magic products and not at all D&D products?

Of course they will be MtG products, they'll be translated into the MtG colours and made into cards for a MtG block. You'd have to be deluded to think it was a DnD product.

 

[flametitan]

I'd recommend checking out the Lore You Should Know segments with Ari Levitch. He goes into detail about the philosophies and Modus Operandi of the various Guilds.

I'll have to take a look at that, sure. That said, mt problem is that not I'm feeling the guilds being a central focus, rather than "Are the guilds interesting?" Like I keep saying: good, interesting factions with lots of interplay should be a requirement of every setting, not a selling point of one setting in particular.

In Magic terms, the setting came about mechanically from the desire to build dual-color Mana decks, and figuring out how weird combos like Green-Black or Blue-Red could be philosophically reconciled. The Ecumenopolis came from the idea, it seems, that weird combos Land cards such as White-Black or Green-Blue would have to be artificial (Banks or factories rather than swamps or forests).

I have little to no interest in Magic the Gathering, so that means nothing to me. I'm asking why, as a D&D player, should I be interested in Ravnica, not why Magic players like Ravnica.

This book goes to great lengths to describe these differences in plain language D&D terms, with no reference to Magic game concepts, which I find interesting. In D&D terms, an Ecumenopolis means the players can't "leave the city," because the city is all that is. A complex, more industrial society provides different story opportunities, and the Guilds firm the basis for the DM to procedurally build material.

That actually doesn't mean as much as you'd think. All a good Urban game needs is enough locations of interest to have little to no reason to leave. Once you establish that, then the size of the city itself doesn't matter. It could be as small as Waterdeep, the size of New York, or even worldwide like Ravnica, and that has little bearing on an urban setting game. In fact, I'd say having a worldwide city almost runs against one of the things I like about Urban campaigns, as to me one of the main conceits of the genre is that all of the points of interest are so close to each other in a confined area.

Not only that, but looking at the book, it seems to ignore that conceit in favour of talking about the guilds anyway. Why should I care about the world spanning city if the book itself doesn't seem to care about it?

And as far as procedurally generating adventures: That's nice, but it really only matters if you care about the setting in the first place. I like the procedurally generated Sharn Adventures in Wayfinder's guide because I like Eberron. If I didn't care about Eberron, the existence of it wouldn't change my mind and make me think Eberron is cool.

Actually it kind of is, because all the guilds are represented there and have influence there along with it being where the Living Guildpact holds court when he is on the plane at all.

There are Ozhov Balisicias, and banks, there Azorious courts, a Simic Zonot, and different types of guild gates and so on.

OK, first: At the time of writing this, I can't actually read that ball of fragmentary sentences sloppily mixed in with wiki citations and edit buttons. After trying to decipher that text, it becomes a list of names. Names I don't know, hold attachment to, and don't excite me. It's nice that you care about them, but why should I? Why should I want to care about them?

 

[Parmandur]

I'll have to take a look at that, sure. That said, mt problem is that not I'm feeling the guilds being a central focus, rather than "Are the guilds interesting?" Like I keep saying: good, interesting factions with lots of interplay should be a requirement of every setting, not a selling point of one setting in particular.



I have little to no interest in Magic the Gathering, so that means nothing to me. I'm asking why, as a D&D player, should I be interested in Ravnica, not why Magic players like Ravnica.



That actually doesn't mean as much as you'd think. All a good Urban game needs is enough locations of interest to have little to no reason to leave. Once you establish that, then the size of the city itself doesn't matter. It could be as small as Waterdeep, the size of New York, or even worldwide like Ravnica, and that has little bearing on an urban setting game. In fact, I'd say having a worldwide city almost runs against one of the things I like about Urban campaigns, as to me one of the main conceits of the genre is that all of the points of interest are so close to each other in a confined area.

Not only that, but looking at the book, it seems to ignore that conceit in favour of talking about the guilds anyway. Why should I care about the world spanning city if the book itself doesn't seem to care about it?

And as far as procedurally generating adventures: That's nice, but it really only matters if you care about the setting in the first place. I like the procedurally generated Sharn Adventures in Wayfinder's guide because I like Eberron. If I didn't care about Eberron, the existence of it wouldn't change my mind and make me think Eberron is cool.



OK, first: At the time of writing this, I can't actually read that ball of fragmentary sentences sloppily mixed in with wiki citations and edit buttons. After trying to decipher that text, it becomes a list of names. Names I don't know, hold attachment to, and don't excite me. It's nice that you care about them, but why should I? Why should I want to care about them?

The Guilds themselves, as narrative entities, are what holds interest in the setting: all locations on the planet are related to and mainly controlled by them. Check out the Lore videos, I think it is the identities of the Guilds that you are not looking at here. The Magic rules elements are interesting in that they allowed for the creation of very different than normal archetypes, sure h as the ghost-controlled Bank-Church of the Orzhav Syndacite, or the Gulgari.

 

[Parmandur]

So in other words, with no interior content changes, this is a D&D book and is NOT a Magic book:
View attachment 102638

But this would be a MtG book and NOT a Dungeons & Dragons book:
View attachment 102639

Because, while 9-point alignment, 9 levels of spells, and a class system are important, this is a D&D book but has none of that:
View attachment 102640
(Ignoring that 4e had neither 9 levels of spells or alignment...)

Certainly if the book we're being marketed as a Magic product when it isn't, it would make sense to complain that it is not a Magic: the Gathering RPG: the complaint is that this D&D product being marketed as a D&D book is not a Magic product, which is odd since they have been explicitly and repeatedly clear in presenting it as a D&D book.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

On the back it says MtG meets D&D and the "MtG world of Ravnica to use in D&D".

I would expect more MtG in my soup the it is presented. I'd also expect more of the world and less of the guilds.

Then you clearly don't know much about Ravnica. The Guilds are the world.

 

[Jester David]

Certainly if the book we're being marketed as a Magic product when it isn't, it would make sense to complain that it is not a Magic: the Gathering RPG: the complaint is that this D&D product being marketed as a D&D book is not a Magic product, which is odd since they have been explicitly and repeatedly clear in presenting it as a D&D book.

True. But the sole benefitt of this product versus say "Planewalker's Guide to Sigil" is that it might attract Magic the Gathering fans to the product, potentially increasing sales and maybe getting them into D&D.
What's the point of doing this rather than a brand new setting?

Then you clearly don't know much about Ravnica. The Guilds are the world.

Given this is not a MtG forum, I wouldn't expect people to know much about Ravnica.
I'm also not going to fault people for expecting a book titled "Guide to Ravnica" to fire and foremost be about Ravnica!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

True. But the sole benefitt of this product versus say "Planewalker's Guide to Sigil" is that it might attract Magic the Gathering fans to the product, potentially increasing sales and maybe getting them into D&D.
What's the point of doing this rather than a brand new setting?



Given this is not a MtG forum, I wouldn't expect people to know much about Ravnica.
I'm also not going to fault people for expecting a book titled "Guide to Ravnica" to fire and foremost be about Ravnica!

It is about Ravnica. Knowing about the guilds ensures you know everything you need to about Ravnica.

 

[Jester David]

It is about Ravnica. Knowing about the guilds ensures you know everything you need to about Ravnica.

So knowing about the Guilds gives me location adventures?
That will tell me how and where the adventuring party meets and what quests they might be given? What people wear and how they act? The history of the setting? What the common trade goods are and where they come from?

That feels a little reductive. Like saying that knowing about the gods and faiths of the Forgotten Realms tells you everything you need to know about Faerun.

After all, the iconic "adventure" is the party guarding a caravan going from place A to B. Knowing the Guilds likely tells me who would be owning and operating the trade caravan. But it wouldn't tell me what was in the caravan, where it was going, and likely not who would try and and hijack it.