D&D 5E Ready action before combat starts? Advantage on initiative?

[Hriston]

Is it considered a combat encounter if one side is aware of a threat but the other is not? Shouldn't a combat encounter proceed when both sides are aware of a threat? If the side that is aware of a threat loses initiative, what would be the course of action for the side that is not aware of a threat after it wins initiative?

If one side is unaware of the presence of the other side at the beginning of an encounter then that side is surprised, so they don't get to act or move on their turn anyway. Winning initiative does let them use reactions, however, because by the time the other side attacks, their turn is over.

 

[Smoo]

The bandits are aware of the party, as the party is aware of the bandits. The bandits are aiming their crossbows at the door... it opens! Roll initiative; the bandits have a chance of letting their concentration lapse for a moment and thus acting after the party. (The party should generally be ready for trouble when going through doors, as it often finds them!)

My table has a social contract that anything the party can do, the monsters can also do, and vice versa. If my party knew there was an enemy on the opposite side of that door, they'd (rightly) expect to be able to ready an action to shoot at somebody as soon as the door was opened. And far be it from me to deny them that. By social contract, though, they understand and accept that the same can happen to them in reverse.

 

[MerricB]

My table has a social contract that anything the party can do, the monsters can also do, and vice versa. If my party knew there was an enemy on the opposite side of that door, they'd (rightly) expect to be able to ready an action to shoot at somebody as soon as the door was opened. And far be it from me to deny them that. By social contract, though, they understand and accept that the same can happen to them in reverse.

And that leads to the situation where both groups are readied to fire at each other when they come into sight. Which order do they fire in? It's not determined by the ready action... it's determined by this little thing called initiative.

(And remember, opening the door is a free action).

Cheers!

 

[spinozajack]

A couple ways to handle the situation.

Have the second room of bandits roll for initiative and join the battle the round after they are alerted. Now with them in the turn order it makes perfect sense for them to ready actions.

Play it as just a normal initiative triggered when the door is opened, both sides are ready for action.

If one side in this case the bandits don't want to make their presence known they can try and stay quite and hide in ambush, while the fight in the adjoining room is going on. This could lead to surprise against the heroes when they open the door.

Personally I like the first option the best.

Good call.

All PCs can take 1 action per round. When no initiative is called or determined, spells and attacks and skill use requiring "1 action" still function, it's just the initiative order is indeterminate since it is moot. But in this case, it isn't. There is always some battle going on somewhere. The group of bandits in the other room, the second they hear the other combat, can decide to join the battle at that point and do nothing except ready actions for the door to open. This is what I would do and this is probably what the devs would say also, based on their previous rulings on similar topics where combat time or not combat time has come up.

As soon as you start taking actions (including ready action), you either have rolled initiative or are in a circumstance where initiative does not matter since you have plenty of time to delay or otherwise ready for a trigger. I know there's no delay initiative in 5th edition, but it amounts to the same thing in this case since the bandits are doing nothing in the other room except readying their crossbows and aiming at the door, and then waiting for it to open before pulling the trigger.

The actual rules question here is pretty clear, I think. Out of combat vs in combat is only differentiated by knowing ones' initiative. If you don't care about joining in combat before someone else, but rather wait for a trigger, you can retcon that initiative was rolled with no real difference. You can then make the other group of bandits roll at that point, or inherit the first bandit group's initiative, or do whatever you want. I know the DM is supposed to roll initiative for monsters joining in, but I would just house rule in that enemies who are waiting in the bushes always get the first reaction off, because their action is to react.

But delaying initiative to something across a closed door seems far fetched, so I'd probably just roll initiative right after the first set of arrows fly. Or before. No matter, those arrows are still the first things going through that door that just opened. That's what playing defense with some prep time allows you to do. I would of course rule the same way for PCs. They can ready actions even out of combat for a trigger, and lie in wait.

 

[Ellsworth]

Lots of good arguments here! Thanks, all. Keep 'em coming.

I'm not necessarily a "by the book" kinda guy, but after reading it again, I think the PHB may clear things up in one sentence:

"Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

I think the key word here is "notice".

So... If the bandits are aware (notice) that something is coming through the door, but the party is not aware (does not notice) that something is on the other side of the door (no matter how prepared for combat they may be), the party is surprised. I take this to mean that the party is not literally surprised to find enemies on the other side of the door, but that the surprise mechanic is used to give the bandits an edge over the party. At the moment, that seems appropriate to me.

Eh?

 

[Paraxis]

Lots of good arguments here! Thanks, all. Keep 'em coming.

I'm not necessarily a "by the book" kinda guy, but after reading it again, I think the PHB may clear things up in one sentence:

"Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

I think the key word here is "notice".

So... If the bandits are aware (notice) that something is coming through the door, but the party is not aware (does not notice) that something is on the other side of the door (no matter how prepared for combat they may be), the party is surprised. I take this to mean that the party is not literally surprised to find enemies on the other side of the door, but that the surprise mechanic is used to give the bandits an edge over the party. At the moment, that seems appropriate to me.

Eh?

The first part is missing from your quote

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Unless the bandits on the other side of the door take actions to be stealthy there can be no surprise, the bandits must wait in the room taking the Hide action making Dexterity(Stealth) checks.

Think of it like people hiding in a room waiting to jump out and yell "Surprise!" for a birthday party, if you hear people moving around and whispering or see shadows move across the gaps around the door to the room you will not be surprised by the people waiting inside.

 

[wedgeski]

If the waiting bandits haven't rolled Initiative, then I agree with previous posters who say that allowing them to Ready an action would be bad form. Having said that, they do have the benefit of setting the room to their advantage, finding cover, pulling out ranged weapons and having their blades close at hand, drinking potions, and so-on..."readying" but with a small 'r'. This can also be decisive.

 

[Rabbitbait]

The thing about this thread that I like is that everyone is correct. Even those who have totally different answers to the problem. And to me that feels like a feature of 5e. It's all down to the style of game being played as to the response by the DM and group. Good stuff.

 

[S'mon]

It seems to me that letting the bandits go first - 1 readied action, then PCs - is much better & more appropriate than using Surprise. Surprise lets one side potentially act twice with 2 full sets of actions and is much more powerful than 1 readied action.
However if the PCs also readied actions - "we kick in the door then we unleash fireball" type stuff - I might roll init to see who goes first.

 

[Smoo]

And that leads to the situation where both groups are readied to fire at each other when they come into sight. Which order do they fire in? It's not determined by the ready action... it's determined by this little thing called initiative.

Eventually. First I'd let the fast readied actions (archers, ranged spell attacks) do their readied actions, simultaneously. If a readied action involves movement, then it's a simple "the other side was aware of you and is also ready to move, so we'll do that in initiative order... roll." But an archer who declares a trigger of "I shoot the instant the door opens" can be granted that wish, no matter whether they're PCs or monsters.