Shadowrun d20?

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm open to being proved wrong on this, but for the most part, nobody ever comes up with anything convincing (assuming they come up with anything at all) to try.

Well, I could try and summarize my thoughts upon hearing Rokugan went d20 a few years back. Basically it went along the lines of:"That won't fit with a large hammer and a monkey wrench."

A few years later, I've still got to say L5R's five rings that represent your attributes, the roll & keep system, especially for damage, and the magic system depending on your elements, and especially the Void Point mechanic, simply are what makes a lot of the whole game fun, and are very characteristic, in my eyes, for the way that game is played and for how the adventures are enjoyed.

WotC and AEG did a lot of work, and good work, to bring Rokugan over and make it work with the D&D rulesystem...but in the process, they created a different game. It's Rokugan d20, not L5R anymore, and it serves more as a backdrop for Oriental Adventures. As such, they took one game, and made it a different one. In my humble opinion.

The same would probably happen if you tried to port Shadowrun over to d20. You'd have the names and the setting, but a different game in the end.

Call of Cthulhu d20, on the other hand, still is the same game, in my eyes...just with slightly different rules.

Does that make any sense to you?

 

[reanjr]

Like others have mentioned, I'm of the belief that this could be done by slapping together D20 Modern (classes, feats, etc.) + D20 Future (tech) + D&D (races, creatures).

 

[jeff37923]

By your logic, you'd make Shadowrun a clone of Cyberpunk 2020. I prefer its current setting; mixing magic and technology with fantasy races in the near-future world.

If you are referring to me, then you are wrong. Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 are different game approaches to the same genre. Why should one have to be the clone of another? YMMV, you obviously like Shadowrun, more power to ya'. I prefer other approaches.

 

[Ranger REG]

YMMV, you obviously like Shadowrun, more power to ya'.

Yep, love the setting, hate the system. No offense, FanPro.

 

[Desdichado]

WotC and AEG did a lot of work, and good work, to bring Rokugan over and make it work with the D&D rulesystem...but in the process, they created a different game. It's Rokugan d20, not L5R anymore, and it serves more as a backdrop for Oriental Adventures. As such, they took one game, and made it a different one. In my humble opinion.

That sounds reasonable. I really like the d20 Rokugan and Oriental Adventures book, but I'm not very familiar with the L5R version, so I can't argue the specifics. I will point out, though, that just because they didn't maintain the same feel of the game, or whatever it is that they lost, doesn't mean that they couldn't. The developers might not simply have known how (this was relatively early in d20, and the assumptions hadn't yet been challenged by more adventurous game designers), or it might not even have been a goal of theirs. In fact, I think the latter was likely, given the nature of the relationship between AEG and WotC; making Rokugan more or less compatible with D&D was probably something done on purpose.

It also depends on what you mean by feel. Some people will tell you that without some specific mechanics, the feel is different. I tend to disagree. 2 + 2 =4, but so does 3 + 1 and all that. d20 can be a game that is high powered and high action like D&D, or it can be a game where even high level PCs can get easily killed by a handful of starving street toughs, as with Ken Hood's GrimNGritty system, or Mike Mearls' Darkness & Dread. It can be strongly archetypical like, again, D&D, or it can lack classe (and levels) entirely like Mutants & Masterminds or Blue Rose. It can be high fantasy dungeoneering, or it can be gritty gangster horror on the streets of downtown Detroit. It's got all the tools in place to support a completely combat-free social interaction and intrique kinda game. You can play a Joe Blow grunt slogging through the mud, or a god capable of destroying armies with just a thought.

I think a lot of folks sell d20 short either because they're not familiar with the right products, or because they automatically link d20 to D&D in their heads and don't think outside that D&D box. I'm a bit of a d20 evangelist, to be sure, but I personally believe that there isn't a genre, tone, feel or type of game that couldn't be portrayed in d20 as long as you're willing to use the right modular pieces of the system.

And in the case of Shadowrun specifically, I don't think it's really all that unique of a creature. Like I said earlier, it's really just cyberpunk + D&D anyway. If anything, I'd think it's one of the non-d20 games that's most capable of being ported into d20.

 

[jeff37923]

Actually, since the whole premise of Shadowrun is D&D in Cyberpunk, I find your statement bordering on ridiculous.

Dark sun bears only a few superficial resemblances to the cyberpunk genre. Another statement bordering on ridiculous.

Not every gamer agrees with that (I don't.) If it weren't just your personal opinion, I'd say that's your third strike of making ridiculous claims in one post.

I find that sentiment to be way over-hyped. Often, the same people who make that statement will then point to some game like Call of Cthulhu, and talk about how well the system matches the setting, all the while forgetting the BRP was first developed for Runequest; a game that was not unlike D&D in it's initial incarnation. d20 is such a flexible modular system that it's difficult to make a claim that it wouldn't work as well as any alternative to capturing just about any genre. I'm open to being proved wrong on this, but for the most part, nobody ever comes up with anything convincing (assuming they come up with anything at all) to try.

Now, I don't have a problem with games being non-d20. More power to them. But don't make specious claims about d20 not being suited to the game to prove that point. All you have to say is, "I like the SR system just fine."

I didn't know that my opinion would incite such a reaction from a person of high post count.

Now, since I have been jumped on for having an opinion - I'll just go ahead and defend it. All of the following is IMHO, by the way. I am not trying to attack anyone here, I'm just saying what I believe and giving the reasons for those beliefs.

First, I find Shadowrun to be fundamentally flawed as a concept because the cyberpunk genre is one of science fiction - having elements of high fantasy mixed in there does not fit with the genre. The cyberpunk genre is usually dystopian, focussed on information technology, and has a primary theme being the alienation and dehumanization of people through technology. Changing people into elves, dwarves, ogres, and whatnot (part of the Shadowrun background) through magic is not dehumanization, it is transformation without the degrading side effects. Sorry, but I just don't like it as the premise.

Second, the Dark Sun setting is a dystopian world which has suffered an ecological catastrophe due to the overuse of magic where the leaders control the flow of knowledge and use magic to keep the populace subjugated. Many cyberpunk settings are in a world that has been ecologically destroyed through pollution where megacorporations rule through the use of artificial intelligence controlled information networks to limit what the population knows. One is science fiction and uses technology while the other is fantasy and uses magic, otherwise the settings are remarkably similar in their effects.

Third, lets shoot a stormtrooper. In the Star Wars movies, its usually one shot - one kill. Assuming a hit and using the same gun (blaster pistol) and average damage rolls, in the WEG d6 Star Wars the stormtrooper is either wounded or incapacitated (causing the stormtrooper to be either out of action for 1 turn or unconscious, out) while in the d20 Star Wars universe that same stormtrooper is still standing and must be shot again before it is rendered combat ineffective (at average die rolls the storntrooper makes his consciousness save the first shot, still in). That is a comparison of how the rules function in two different game systems for the exact same action.

Now, with that being said and done, should you choose to claim that my opinion is bordering on ridiculous then please be able demonstrate why it is - that way a discussion may actually evolve out of exchange. Normally I don't get miffed by someone being pompous on a message board, but you caught me on an off day.

 

[apegod]

Not all of 'em.

No, and there won't be.

Shadowrun fans (and authors) are the most rabid anti-d20 gamers I've encountered.

Geoff.

We played 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun for years. I love the setting. But, we dropped it like a hot potatoe for D20. I know my group would be willing to play it again if they made a D20 conversion. I heard Wizards is releasing a D20 Cyberpunk later this year. That would be good timing!

 

[Desdichado]

I didn't know that my opinion would incite such a reaction from a person of high post count.

What does my postcount have to do with my reaction to anything?

Now, since I have been jumped on for having an opinion - I'll just go ahead and defend it. All of the following is IMHO, by the way. I am not trying to attack anyone here, I'm just saying what I believe and giving the reasons for those beliefs.

Rather, for stating your opinion as if they were facts. But to be fair, I do that a lot too. I guess you caught me on an off-day too. And you hit a personal pet peeve of mine by claiming that d20 is incapable of doing something that is actually, IMO, right up it's alley. I have to admit that I get a bit more bent out of shape then normal when I see anti-d20 hysteria. I have nothing against any other game systems; in fact I own and have played many. But I like d20, I've been impressed with its flexibility and modular nature, and I don't like to see it unfairly shafted. Which, granted, doesn't happen here all that often. But that's part of the reason I spend a lot more time here than at rpg.net or some other forum where anti-d20 evangelists come out of the woodwork.

First, I find Shadowrun to be fundamentally flawed as a concept because the cyberpunk genre is one of science fiction - having elements of high fantasy mixed in there does not fit with the genre. The cyberpunk genre is usually dystopian, focussed on information technology, and has a primary theme being the alienation and dehumanization of people through technology. Changing people into elves, dwarves, ogres, and whatnot (part of the Shadowrun background) through magic is not dehumanization, it is transformation without the degrading side effects. Sorry, but I just don't like it as the premise.

That sounds exactly like a case for instigating a more D&D like setup then. As I said earlier, Shadowrun is D&D + cyberpunk, and more than just cosmetically. It borrows themes and conventions from both. You stated that you didn't think Shadowrun should be ported to d20 and stated this as a reason, but I'm not seeing it. If anything, this is a reason why it should be ported to d20.

Second, the Dark Sun setting is a dystopian world which has suffered an ecological catastrophe due to the overuse of magic where the leaders control the flow of knowledge and use magic to keep the populace subjugated. Many cyberpunk settings are in a world that has been ecologically destroyed through pollution where megacorporations rule through the use of artificial intelligence controlled information networks to limit what the population knows. One is science fiction and uses technology while the other is fantasy and uses magic, otherwise the settings are remarkably similar in their effects.

You've whittled cyberpunk down to such a bare bones description that it's fairly meaningless. According to that description, Glen Cook's The Black Company is just as much cyberpunk as Dark Sun. Which is an indication that you're only looking at some superficial elements in common while ignoring other equally integral elements. For example, you say "One is science fiction and uses technology while the other is fantasy and uses magic," but that's already a problem. One of the main defining features of cyberpunk is that it is science fiction and it is about the effects of technology on humanity. Changing technology to magic isn't just a cosmetic change, that's a fundemental shift in the whole point of the genre.

Third, lets shoot a stormtrooper. In the Star Wars movies, its usually one shot - one kill. Assuming a hit and using the same gun (blaster pistol) and average damage rolls, in the WEG d6 Star Wars the stormtrooper is either wounded or incapacitated (causing the stormtrooper to be either out of action for 1 turn or unconscious, out) while in the d20 Star Wars universe that same stormtrooper is still standing and must be shot again before it is rendered combat ineffective (at average die rolls the storntrooper makes his consciousness save the first shot, still in). That is a comparison of how the rules function in two different game systems for the exact same action.

That's a relatively good example, all things considered, but that's one extremely narrow example. I haven't played Star Wars d6 in a long time, but I seem to recall it doing many things that wer not very much like the movies that d20 corrected. At most I'll concede that both have their moments when the emulate the source material well, and others that do so poorly.

Now, with that being said and done, should you choose to claim that my opinion is bordering on ridiculous then please be able demonstrate why it is - that way a discussion may actually evolve out of exchange. Normally I don't get miffed by someone being pompous on a message board, but you caught me on an off day.

Done.

 

[jeff37923]

I spend a lot more time here than at rpg.net or some other forum where anti-d20 evangelists come out of the woodwork.

I think I see the crux of the matter, here. OK, I am not an anti-d20 evangelist nor do I believe that the d20 mechanic is suitable for all genres - I believe in using the best possible tool for the job. In games, that may be d20 and it may not - its a situational thing based upon a lot of variables for the game. I do think that no system is perfect for everything.

Now, if you want to go ahead and create a d20 Shadowrun - then go for gold! I have no investment in the game because of how I feel about its background assumptions and don't really care if it becomes d20 or d02 for that matter because I do not play it.

Thanks for your counter opinion on the Dark Sun - cyberpunk connection, I think you are wrong. I have not read Glen Cook's The Black Company so I cannot speak on it. Sorry.

Otherwise, I'm just going to drop it because I see no percentage in this.

 

[Ranger REG]

I think I see the crux of the matter, here. OK, I am not an anti-d20 evangelist nor do I believe that the d20 mechanic is suitable for all genres - I believe in using the best possible tool for the job. In games, that may be d20 and it may not - its a situational thing based upon a lot of variables for the game. I do think that no system is perfect for everything.

I'm at a point in my age where I stopped worrying about having the best possible tool for the job, and just have fun for fun's sake...

...Unless fun means jumping out of plane and parachuting.