D&D 5E Should 5e have more classes (Poll and Discussion)?

[Minigiant]

That's fine, but until level 11 when fighter gets 3 attacks, they really aren't much weaker. I mean, i know a lot also depend on subclass selection, but overall I don't see either the paladin or ranger as much weaker in fighting that the fighter--even without their spells.

We are talking about a world and system where rangers, paladins, eldritch Knight, duskblades, and swordmages are subclasses of fighter with champions and battle master.

It kind of breaks the immersion and suspension of belief if a fighter can eschew magic for more focus on martial combat and not be much better than than those who do

Why would a fighter not learn magical if those who do learn magic lose almost nothing in return?

 

[DND_Reborn]

It kind of breaks the immersion and suspension of belief if a fighter can eschew magic for more focus on martial combat and not be much better than than those who do

I agree. Which is why I think Fighters really need to be made a bit better.

Why would a fighter not learn magical if those who do learn magic lose almost nothing in return?

Exactly. And look at how many subclasses across the board are given magic in one form or another?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The Ranger and Paladin use spells to make up for their deficiency.

The Eldritch Knight is a fighter. It is narratively better at fighting than Rangers and Paladins. The EKs magic isn't to bolster their combat ability but more of a sidegrade to boost the range of their attacks and readiness.

Exactly this. Paladins and Rangers use their spells and magic to get them on par with a fighter, and an arcane gish class should as well. An Eldritch Knight does have spellcasting, but it's limited, not used to power their attacks, and instead is used as a separate mode of combat.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yes. It has to blend arcane spells and martial fighting as seamlessly as a paladin blends divine magic and martial fighting and a ranger should blend nature spells and martial fighting. A proper true gish would be a half-caster, like a paladin or ranger, but with arcane magic. If a gish is merely a wizard, warlock, or fighter subclass, it will not be a true pure gish.

In actual terms however, Paladins and Rangers don't blend fighting and casting. They cast a concentration buff spell and then just fight in the same fashion as a fighter. They have some combat spells, but practical use of them is rare because they don't have the slots to sustain them usually. The Paladin will burn more slots in combat, but that is through slots powering their class ability, and only rarely actual spells.
The class that I've seen blend actual spells and attacks together the best was the Stone Sorceror, because that had access to smite spells, the slots to power them, and no smite class ability that was a better use for their slots than the smite spells were.

Well to me Truenaming and Mad Science aren't magic. They are their own forms of knowledge that follow their own rules to create effects.

What sort of effects?

You could have them be magic in some world or you can say that the presences of magic has warped biology, chemistry, and physics enough to create effects that are impossible on Earth.

That is magic. Just because its not technically casting a spell doesn't stop something from being magical. Artificers and Monks are two very different examples of this.

As for electricity, so what if we harnassed it recently. There is nothing against a few geniuses brave enough and lucky enough to discover electricity in their medieval era. If fact, based on how electricity was first seen, it would make sense that only a few people could harness and use it as most people would see it as as or even more dangerous than arcane magic.

Actually generating and using it effectively using the materials available in that period is going to require science fiction that invokes Clarke's Third Law.

As for Surgery, Drugmaking Batttlefield tactics, Law, Speechwriting and the like, they would not been their own class. The loremaster would learn applications of them in small bitesized chooseable class features much like invocations. Perhaps at the cost of some "brainy resource".

What sort of effects? I can guess at the Drugmaking, Battlefield tactics by looking at Alchemist Artificer and Warlord, but a class feature based around knowledge of "Law" does not seem particularly useful without a background or feature that actually grants authority.

again, skills in 5e barely define what can be done and what the DC is. It's all up to the DM and the player's opinion and creativity. The loremaster or scholar would allow the group to lock down the effects of some mundane lore of the world to some knowable effect and explain the fantasy of the world should they choose to allow it.

The issue you need to avoid is locking down a capability of a skill into a class feature.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

In actual terms however, Paladins and Rangers don't blend fighting and casting. They cast a concentration buff spell and then just fight in the same fashion as a fighter. They have some combat spells, but practical use of them is rare because they don't have the slots to sustain them usually. The Paladin will burn more slots in combat, but that is through slots powering their class ability, and only rarely actual spells.
The class that I've seen blend actual spells and attacks together the best was the Stone Sorceror, because that had access to smite spells, the slots to power them, and no smite class ability that was a better use for their slots than the smite spells were.

Um, casting a spell that empowers your martial combat abilities is exactly the same thing as blending fighting and casting. Hunter's Mark helps them deal more combat damage with their attacks, Divine Smite and Smite Spells allow them to blend magic and melee combat.

 

[Minigiant]

What sort of effects

I have a quick mock up the concepts that I did on a break.

Spoiler: Scholar Lore thingies

Truenaming: Lexicon of the Evolving Mind
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Arcana
You know some of the Truespeak for living beings, mortal and immortal. By saying them with the few adjectives you can utter, their base natures can be altered. Make a Intelligence (Arcana) check and choose a Utterance against a DC 10 plus the HD of the target. If you succeed, the target is affected by the Utterance. If you fail, the target cannot be affected by that utterance from you for 24 hours. You may spend a lore point to roll a d8 and add it to the result of your intelligence (Arcana) check.

Utterances
Energy Negation- The target gets resistance or vulnerability to fire, lightning, or cold damage.
Speed of the Zephyr- The target's speed is halved or doubled for an hour
Word of Nurturing- The target is healed 2d8 damage or takes 1dd8 poison damage

Book of Legends
Prerequisite: Profiency in History.
You can recall a legend pertaining to this situation. As a bonus action you can spend a lore point to grant anyone who can hear you a bonus to any ability check equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Fluent Bilinguist
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Diplomacy. Know 4 or more languages
You are experienced at blending multiple languages together to impart a sense of familiarity in others. If you and another share at least 2 languages, you can spend a lore point to gain advantage on Charisma check with them. If you share 3 or more languages, you may spend an additional lore point to add 1d8 to the result of the check.

Strategist's Epiphany
Prerequisite: Profiency in History
You notice similarities between the current layout and ambushes from the past. Before initiative is rolled, you can spend a lore point to grant every ally within 30ft a bonus to Initiative rolls and damage rolls for the first 2 rounds of combat equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Reliable Haggler
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Diplomacy
You are practiced in monetary negotiation and notice slips of the tongue to pull discounts. When purchasing a single good or service, you may spend a lore point to get a discount as a percentage equal to your Charisma score plus your scholar level.

Theologian's Shield
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Religion
Recalling lore from sacred text, you know how to defend against attacks typically used by the extraplanar. As a reaction, you can spend a lore point and grant yourself and any number of allies within 10 feet resistance to lightning, necrotic, and lightning damage for 1 minute.

Spell Surgery
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Medicine, Field of Physicians
You know exactly where to apply healing magic to enhance it's effect. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend a lore point to reroll any number of those dice once.

Surgical Strike
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Medicine
You know exactly where to strike to make an attack hurt more. Before you make a weapon attack, you may spend a lore point to add 2d8 to the damage roll.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Today there is some space for a fighter with some arcane spells, because the witcher is being very popular now.

What are the marks of identity to recognize a "duskblade/hexblade/swordmage"? For example no shield, no heavy armour, no helmet and a empty hand? But this would be too close to the swordsage. How would be their personality? I guess too similar with the "cultivators", the masters of mystic martial arts from the wuxia fiction with the goal of training hardly to archive the physical and mental perfection. What would be the differences between a hybrid psionic+fighter, ki-fighter and magic-fighter? Good question and I just now I can't dare to give an answer. I guess the psionic doesn't show arcane signs as shining runes on the air or reciten spells. The ki-channeler only can affect her own body, or something with direct contact, or using her own chi as energy to shoot projectiles.

Maybe the duskblade don't cast spells for the fight but she would rather to use magic runes on weapons and armour as a single-use magic item (as potions or scrolls). And some spells for the duskblade would allow to use magic martial maneuvers for an encounter, for example a softer version of jump spell to can attack heads of bigger enemies.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Today there is some space for a fighter with some arcane spells, because the witcher is being very popular now.

What are the marks of identity to recognize a "duskblade/hexblade/swordmage"? For example no shield, no heavy armour, no helmet and a empty hand? But this would be too close to the swordsage. How would be their personality? I guess too similar with the "cultivators", the masters of mystic martial arts from the wuxia fiction with the goal of training hardly to archive the physical and mental perfection. What would be the differences between a hybrid psionic+fighter, ki-fighter and magic-fighter? Good question and I just now I can't dare to give an answer. I guess the psionic doesn't show arcane signs as shining runes on the air or reciten spells. The ki-channeler only can affect her own body, or something with direct contact, or using her own chi as energy to shoot projectiles.

Maybe the duskblade don't cast spells for the fight but she would rather to use magic runes on weapons and armour as a single-use magic item (as potions or scrolls). And some spells for the duskblade would allow to use magic martial maneuvers for an encounter, for example a softer version of jump spell to can attack heads of bigger enemies.

Those could be different specific characters in the arcane gish class I'm making. The class gets a feature called Spell Strike that lets them put a spell in a weapon, and trigger it when they hit someone with the melee weapon. A character could describe magical glowing runes being inscribed in their sword when they use this feature. That would be a cool concept and theme, but I wouldn't limit the whole class or subclass to the runes. Maybe one character creates fiery runes when they Spell Strike a fireball, but another could cause their blade to burst into flames, or glow orange.

 

[jmartkdr2]

IMO the easiest thing to do would be reskin the Paladin and give it more appropriate features for arcane instead of divine.

Or as I mentioned before have a "Gish" class where mage knight (?), paladin, and ranger are subclasses... I find the current paladin subclasses weak and the ranger ones weak and undefined in some ways.

That' one way to do it - but reskinning stuff like "aura of protection" to a wizard-appropriate ability is a big stretch, since it also enforces a playstyle that's much more specific than blending magic and weapons, and isn't even appropriate for all paladins, let alone all swordmages. So now you're swapping features - which is how the DMG recommends you make a new class.

I'd personally have magic type in the subclass (including setting casting ability) and use Weapon Runes for added customization similar to Invocations. I'd also not give divine options, since paladin already covers it.

I don't have any hope of an official version for 5e, because they refuse to correct mistakes by changing existing stuff, but hopefully they'll take this into account for the next edition whenever that happens.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The class gets a feature called Spell Strike that lets them put a spell in a weapon, and trigger it when they hit someone with the melee weapon.

I remember skimming over that. IIRC on a hit, if the spell normally allows a save, the target fails it automatically? If so, that is way too OP for me, anyway, and at best maybe impose disadvantage on the saving?