Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Nifft]

How much resolution does one allow with the triggering condition?

Could you ready "I ready an action to move if the ogre attacks me and hits", to distinguish it from "the ogre attacks me but misses"?

No, because "hits" isn't an action -- it's the resolution of an action.

I've answered your question, would you mind taking a crack at mine?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Felnar]

Yeah but if you are readying an action to move out of the way of an arrow then you are effectively giving up your action to prepare a readied defensive action. Kinda like the parry rules of "Skull & Bones". It doesn't make sense to sacrifice an attack to parry when you only have one attack because you'll always be on the defense and never get to attack. Since you only ever have one move action if you always ready a move action to defend against a ranged attacker you'll never actually get your own attacks in (unless you too are equiped with a ranged weapon but if you step behind total cover you can't attack either). The battle will be going on around you and your character won't be contributing at all.

not exactly
readying in this way prevents you from attacking, but if you dont have a ranged attack for example you arent attacking anyway, so you didnt give up anything. In fact you still double moved towards the archer and made them auto-miss their highest BAB attack. If readying a move against a loosed arrow is possible it is a highly effective tactic.

Yes. If you see someone shooting an arrow at you, there is a distinct amount of time it takes the arrow to reach you, so if all you do for the round is wait and prepare to dodge, I would let you move out of the flight path of the arrow after it was shot.

how about if you advance at the archer AND prepare to dodge?
can you ready to sidestep a charge?
can you ready to sidestep a ray spell?
etc

do you want to create a new 'full-round action' type of ready thats even better at interrupting (still only granting a single standard action)?

I think in this instance you should get a benefit that's better than the +4 AC from total defense. After all, you're not trying to defend against all attacks, but against just one single attack.

i'm not against this type of ruling per se
but i'd like to define what precedents it does and does not set.

 

[XCorvis]

You sure? Ready looks flexible enough to cover it unless the DM vetoes the ready action. You declare your ready for when the firebead is coming or the arrow is released. Against the archer it is actually easier, a diagonal 5' adjust will take you out of the arrow's path, possibly putting you in threat with the archer, extra good if your ready was an attack action. Againt the fireball it will take 20' of movement to be safe.

No, I'm not at all sure. It's a very grey area, as the length of this thread indicates. What it does make me realize is that I absolutely do not want to deal with the implications that this ruling creates. For that reason alone, I would not allow it in my game. It's too broad of a change.

 

[Nifft]

You sure? Ready looks flexible enough to cover it unless the DM vetoes the ready action. You declare your ready for when the firebead is coming or the arrow is released. Against the archer it is actually easier, a diagonal 5' adjust will take you out of the arrow's path, possibly putting you in threat with the archer, extra good if your ready was an attack action. Againt the fireball it will take 20' of movement to be safe.

IMHO the only reason you're safe from the fireball is that fireball must target an intersection -- not a creature.

Against an archer, you might be able to move out of your current range increment, but if you don't have cover nearby, you're not going to be able to step 5 ft. out of the way of the arrow, because the arrow isn't aimed at your current square -- it's aimed at you.

However: against a blind archer, or if you're otherwise not visible to the archer, and he's forced to target your 5 ft. square, then you could pull the 5 ft. step out of the way trick with a Readied action.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, because "hits" isn't an action -- it's the resolution of an action.

And given that the selection of the location for the fireball doesn't occur until the spell comes into effect, isn't the area the fireball encompasses similarly part of the resolution of the action?

If you and your friend were both threatened by the ogre, and you had an ready action to move triggered by "If he attacks me", then his attack against you would trigger your ready, you would move, and he would be unable to resolve his attack; similarly, he would not be able to use that attack on your friend, as it was an attack against you that triggered that readied action. (Beware, of course, that your movement might provoke an AoO that occurs before your movement that occurs before his original attack!)

Similarly, if you and your friend were both some distance from an ogre, and you had an ready action to move triggered by "If he throws a javelin at me", then his attack against you would trigger your ready... but because the triggered action precedes the triggering action, he hasn't actually made his attack at the time you move. If you move somewhere he can still reach with his throw, he can throw it at you anyway (though not at your friend) after you've moved; if you move somewhere he can't, he's spent a standard action on his attack, but he need not release the javelin.

Because the readied action precedes the triggering action, you don't end up moving while the missile is in mid-flight.

Just as with the fireball - you either move when he starts casting (triggering off his action), or you don't; there isn't a mechanic to move after the bead leaves his hand but before it reaches the point of origin of the spread.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

IMHO the only reason you're safe from the fireball is that fireball must target an intersection -- not a creature.

It targets an intersection chosen when the spell comes into effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

And given that the selection of the location for the fireball doesn't occur until the spell comes into effect, isn't the area the fireball encompasses similarly part of the resolution of the action?

No, what I'm saying is as follows.

The Readied actor is committed to taking an action when a condition is met. The trigger action should be in a similarly committed state, else you're cheating the Readier of his (last turn's) action.

Your interpretation would make several cool things impossible -- for example, it would be impossible to throw up a wall of stone in front of a Wizard who was going to cast fireball at you, because the Wizard could just throw the fireball down the other end of the hallway.

If you and your friend were both threatened by the ogre, and you had an ready action to move triggered by "If he attacks me", then his attack against you would trigger your ready, you would move, and he would be unable to resolve his attack; similarly, he would not be able to use that attack on your friend, as it was an attack against you that triggered that readied action.

Agreed.

Similarly, if you and your friend were both some distance from an ogre, and you had an ready action to move triggered by "If he throws a javelin at me", then his attack against you would trigger your ready... but because the triggered action precedes the triggering action, he hasn't actually made his attack at the time you move. If you move somewhere he can still reach with his throw, he can throw it at you anyway (though not at your friend) after you've moved; if you move somewhere he can't, he's spent a standard action on his attack, but he need not release the javelin.

Wait. Why do you think melee and missile attacks should be resolved differently? IMHO, this is identical to the case above -- the ogre has thrown his javelin, but it's too late, for the clever PC was already moving behind cover. Javelin strikes cover.

Because the readied action precedes the triggering action, you don't end up moving while the missile is in mid-flight.

The precise moment it occurs is irrelevant. I'm going to claim D&D combat is abstract enough to explain how the events occurred in multiple ways.

But you seem to be saying that the ogre gets to "take back" one action (throwing a javelin) but not "take back" a similar action (swinging a club). Why do you make this distinction?

Just as with the fireball - you either move when he starts casting (triggering off his action), or you don't; there isn't a mechanic to move after the bead leaves his hand but before it reaches the point of origin of the spread.

Again, I don't care about the physics of magical spells. Either targeting is part of the action, or it's not. You already agree that it's part of the action for melee attacks, and I think you can be made to agree that missile attacks are similar to melee attacks.

If it is, then the fact that this spell targets a point in space is relevant.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wait. Why do you think melee and missile attacks should be resolved differently?

I don't.

You ready against a melee attack; before the attack occurs, your action triggers. If he can no longer make that attack, the action is wasted.

You ready against a ranged attack; before the attack occurs, your action triggers. If he can no longer make that attack, the action is wasted.

But he not forced to swing his club where you were but are no longer, just as he's not forced to throw his javelin where you were but are no longer.

In neither case does he 'get the action back'.

Your interpretation would make several cool things impossible -- for example, it would be impossible to throw up a wall of stone in front of a Wizard who was going to cast fireball at you, because the Wizard could just throw the fireball down the other end of the hallway.

Well, that's what "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect" says. You throw Wall of Stone in front of the wizard, and then the spell comes into effect and he makes all pertinent decisions about it.

-Hyp.

 

[azhrei_fje]

I don't.

You ready against a melee attack; before the attack occurs, your action triggers. If he can no longer make that attack, the action is wasted.

I don't agree. The DMG (pages 24 and 25) deal with simultaneous actions in combat. I believe that the trigger action occurs simultaneously with the readied action. So the triggering action has already occurred: the club has been swung, the javelin released, etc. For game purposes, the person readying is moved ahead of the triggerer (is that a word?) but they are both taking their action in the same round, so by definition they are acting within the same 6-second segment of time.

 

[RangerWickett]

Here's the problem:

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

Therefore the readied action (movement) occurs just before the triggering action (casting the fireball). The time between the spell being completed and the fireball going off is not an action.

So what you're saying is, I should ready an action to move when the fireball explodes. That way my movement occurs just before the fireball can hurt me. Ah, good. Thank you!