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D&D 5E Simulation vs Game - Where should D&D 5e aim?

Within the gameworld, the giant has no level and is neither a minion nor a solo. It is a giant. The people who look at it - the inhabitants of the gameworld - can see it, and can see what it is capable of.
Level (in 4E) and Challenge Rating (in 3E) are just meta-game descriptors. What the giant is - what it can actually do - must remain objective. And that's reflected in its stats - Strength, Will, attack bonus, stealth, etc.

A level 8 solo has what? Like +13 to hit? And a level 25 minion is like +30? The specific numbers aren't terribly important. The point is that, all else being equal, when attacking the same target - a moderately experienced paladin with AC 25, for example - the solo will sometimes miss in situations where the minion would not. The solo can certainly survive against successful attacks that the minion cannot.

But within the game world, to people actually watching this happen, only one of the two outcomes actually happens. The giant either hits, or it does not. It is either hurt by the paladin's retort, or it is not; and, if it is hurt, then it either drops or it does not.

As long as there are multiple game-mechanical ways to represent the same in-game thing, you will have different results depending on which one you use. At that point, it is no longer internally consistent. Thus, to maintain internal consistency and objectivity, there must be exactly one mechanical way to represent any distinct thing; and if there is a different game mechanical representation between two things, then there must be some real, substantive difference between those things as they exist within the objective reality of the game world.
 

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Aenghus

Explorer
Level (in 4E) and Challenge Rating (in 3E) are just meta-game descriptors. What the giant is - what it can actually do - must remain objective. And that's reflected in its stats - Strength, Will, attack bonus, stealth, etc.

No, no it doesn't. The players don't have access to the monster's stats generally and so long as the referee does a plausible job of describing what happens it doesn't necessarily matter what stats he's using for the monster behind the screen. What is acceptable from campaign to campaign varies hugely.

A level 8 solo has what? Like +13 to hit? And a level 25 minion is like +30? The specific numbers aren't terribly important. The point is that, all else being equal, when attacking the same target - a moderately experienced paladin with AC 25, for example - the solo will sometimes miss in situations where the minion would not. The solo can certainly survive against successful attacks that the minion cannot.

But within the game world, to people actually watching this happen, only one of the two outcomes actually happens. The giant either hits, or it does not. It is either hurt by the paladin's retort, or it is not; and, if it is hurt, then it either drops or it does not.

As long as there are multiple game-mechanical ways to represent the same in-game thing, you will have different results depending on which one you use. At that point, it is no longer internally consistent. Thus, to maintain internal consistency and objectivity, there must be exactly one mechanical way to represent any distinct thing; and if there is a different game mechanical representation between two things, then there must be some real, substantive difference between those things as they exist within the objective reality of the game world.

It's a consequence of increasing PC power due to level advancement. You see, in maybe every version of D&D monsters are usable within a certain range of PC levels, and tend to be too strong to use against PCs under that level range and too weak to be any threat to people over that level range (this is a matter of maths and the level ranges vary with PC stats, magic items and houserules etc). So any single stat block has limited usefulness. I remember old high level modules with hordes of useless orcs that all needed 20's to hit the PCs, typically all taken out with the first fireball.(That the orcs can't be harmless to high level PCs is a separate argument I won't address here. Again thats a matter of taste.)

Solo/elite/standard/minion is one approach to assigning different stat blocks to the same monster to extend the level range it can be effectively used in. A level 8 solo probably needs 20's to hit level 25 PCs, and isn't a threat to them. The level 8 stat block is a waste of valuable DM time in a level 25 fight. The level 25 minion is much easier for the DM to run, has a much better chance to hit the PCs for some damage, and won't overstay its welcome. This solution sacrifices rigid worldbuilding consistency in favour of reducing the DM workload, possibly improving gameplay(subjective judgement) and providing a different sort of consistency(obsolete monsters don't suddenly disappear from the game or uselessly clog up fights like the orcs of old).
 

No, no it doesn't. The players don't have access to the monster's stats generally and so long as the referee does a plausible job of describing what happens it doesn't necessarily matter what stats he's using for the monster behind the screen. What is acceptable from campaign to campaign varies hugely.
In context, I was saying that this is only a requirement if you want an internally consistent system for modelling an objective reality. Some people don't want that, which is why they can accept these mechanical contrivances.

Personally, and my method of judging whether or not 5E will be playable at all, is that it must at absolute minimum allow for internal consistency in modelling an objective reality. If it can't do that, then it's forsaken the sim audience entirely, and I will have no part in it.
 

shadow

First Post
Instead of the term 'simulation', perhaps 'story' would be more appropriate. I am not thinking about whether the rules are attempting to simulate anything resembling 'realistic', but rather if they allow the DM to create an interesting fantasy story.

On the other hand, we see things that make sense in terms of game mechanics, but seem rather arbitrary in terms of story. One example that I have been thinking of is the rebuilding mechanics seen in the 3e PHB2 and the überfeats introduced in Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might 2 which require players to 'retire 4 normal feats' to obtain. While it might make perfect sense in terms of game mechanics to change a created character or to sacrifice obtained abilities to get a better ability, it is strange in terms of story why a character can no suddenly do a certain ability. (e.g. Why can't the the fighter who used to cleave enemies no longer use the ability? Did he forget all of the sudden?)
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
This is not a very accurate description of most of the TSR-published material that I have. It is game content, but it is not game structures. For instance, I have material that talk about stone walls and floors, about peasants, about plants and flowers, about food and drink, about kings and rivers and borders and countries. Countless pages of such stuff, mostly published by TSR between the early 80s and the late 90s. This is game content, but the expectation is that the players will know how to interact with it based on their knowledge of the real world, and imaginatively projecting. There are often few or no game rules associated with this stuff, and certainly not enough to regulate even half of what players might try and do with it.
2e did publish a some very bad game books which didn't even include game statistics for game components within them. But that's due to ignorance of design. Of course I'm talking about all the 1000s of books which actually do have game stats.

Just to give one instance - suppose a player says, during a bar-room situation "I spill my beer on such-and-such an NPC so we'll be able to identify him later by the smell of beer on his clothes". Nothing published by TSR that I'm aware of has any rules for resolving this game move. It depends entirely on imaginative projection of the properties of cups, of beer and of human noses as the participants know them to be in the real world.
Are you incapable of using game mechanics to provide for all those actions? D&D game books are not complete works. They are suggestions for DMs to create the codes they will use behind the screen. And alcohol, beer, scents, and tracking are hardly uncommon game components given everything that's been published.

This is just nonsense.

Seeing as you love talking about role playing in the social sciences, I'll give you an example. I teach in a law school. I therefore have to write moot problems and exam questions. Many of these involve fictions. For instance, here is one from last semester's exam:

SNIP
What your talking about is rhetoric and using reasoning to support such, which you've repeatedly put forth as what players in all role playing games do even though D&D and most every RPG were never designed to do this. You're simply feeding into the viewpoint of the Forge trying to purposefully confuse people into believing fiction producing games (and any conjecture that goes on about such fiction) are "the one true" role playing games and not another hobby entirely.

Games are patterns. People play them to engage in strategy. Rhetoric can be a strategy and players in D&D (not DMs) can engage in it to convince fellow players to follow their courses of action. But this isn't role playing.
And I can tell you, law students have been answering questions about made-up fact situations, and engaging in client interview exercise, long before Edwards ever set finger to keyboard.
So lawyers have been playing cooperative games hidden behind a screen tracking in memory and in their notes what the portions of the game map the DM relates? Because that's D&D and it is the unique identity which created the RPG hobby. People who hate that practice are the ones who are attempting to destroy one hobby and whitewash it with another. I trust you are educated and are who you claim to be online, but your single-minded understanding of role playing only feeds this culture of abuse whether you are deliberately part of it or not.

Your insistence on equating "fictions" with "stories" is a huge impediment to talking about this issue with you. I have just given an example of a fiction that is not a story. Thought experiments in special relativity are another example.
Fictions don't reference a real world noumenon. D&D has a game board (maps actually) that are referenced by the DM. They aren't fictional for that fact. They support imaginary structure which is fantasy, not fiction. That you refuse to see that difference keeps you locked in a vocabulary which closes off any other possible understandings about RPG and D&D.

And there most definitely are shared fictions. I shared the above fiction with over 100 students sitting last semester's exam.
In hardline postmodern theory "sharing" can only be done ironically or in delusion.

Can you not see how tortured this is? You talk about moving the players' pieces, and then talk about the game-defined ability of those pieces to sense. Sense what? The "pieces" are inanimate objects. They can't sense anything. And all that the players can sense is the GM's screen and the table in front of them. All the "sensing" is imaginary - it is the imagined sensing of imagined things by imagined characters. The content of all that imagining is a fiction.
Don't get caught up in game terminology. "Senses" are game abilities assigned to game pieces in the game. The abilities themselves are references to a game board (think spell area) and tied to other game boards all measurable by the DM.

Likewise your reference to "the reality the DM is relating". When the DM says "You see an orc" what reality is the DM relating? There is no orc. A fortiori, then, no one sees an orc. It's all made up.
DMs often do say "You see an orc", but they mean "Bob, your character sees an orc" all game components and game terminolgy. "Seeing" is referencing something happening in a game. And of course the orc piece can only be seen if its within the "sight" sensory ability of the PC piece.

Here is another example that proves my point, from Gygax's DMG p 71, discussing the resolution of a player's action declaration of hurling oil at a monster:
Gygax could not have been be discussing resolution mechanics. They didn't even exist in games until the Forge invented them.

What is Gygax talking about here, given that the oil, the pouch, and the indicated moments of time, all DO NOT EXIST? He is talking about imaginary oil, in an imaginary pouch, in which imagined time is passing. And the GM is resolving the action by reference to that imagined fiction. This is what is sometimes called "free form roleplaying" without the need to use mechanics.
Of course all those things exist, they must exist to occur in the game.
And this is not a special case. It's inherent to RPGing. It's the difference between RPGing and chess. Chess does not require imagining a pretend situation. It does not require asserting any propositions that are false when evaluated against the real world. Whereas RPGing does. It requires asserting propositions about the existence and location of oil, and the passage of time, all of which would be false if evaluated against the real world. (But the participants know how they are to be evaluated, namely, relative to the shared fiction.)

This also has nothing to do with storygaming, or The Forge. Gygax is not discussing storytelling. He's discussing playing a game. But part of being good at that game is having the ability to think of clever things relative to a fiction. It's not just pattern recognition, anymore than playing Pictionary, or "I spy with my little eye", is just pattern recognition. (Nor is playing basketball just pattern recognition, for that matter, though for reasons different from RPGing - in the case of basketball it's because the game has a huge physical/athletic component.)

Your repeated assertions that all gameplay is pattern recognition is more dogmatic than anything that ever came out of The Forge.
You keep repeating Forge theory as fact, not that many followers treat it as less. It's as far as fact can be considering how "agenda"-driven and deliberately falsifying of self-reported understandings of games that theory was. It's not a theory, it's an ideology pushed on an ignorant gamer population.

To be clear, I've not misunderstood your position here. You keep repeating it over and over as if I'm simply misunderstanding your one true way of believing. The fact is, you simply have no conception of why D&D was designed with 1000s of books and requires campaign worlds and adventures to even run. Why DMs are a necessity to playing the game. Of course those things are irrelevant in the game you play because you have no desire to play D&D as designed as you've made abundantly clear. You're pushing D&D as a storygame and not only that you're pushing all RPGs as exclusively storygames. Just about everything you purport here is just flat out wrong.

EDIT: To the last bit, games and puzzles are entirely about pattern recognition. That this is not the whole of existence is obvious, but it's a key component of what makes activities games and puzzles rather than something else.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
In context, I was saying that this is only a requirement if you want an internally consistent system for modelling an objective reality. Some people don't want that, which is why they can accept these mechanical contrivances.

Personally, and my method of judging whether or not 5E will be playable at all, is that it must at absolute minimum allow for internal consistency in modelling an objective reality. If it can't do that, then it's forsaken the sim audience entirely, and I will have no part in it.

If this is what you want at of an RPG, more power to you. Personally, I've always found that using PC chapter in the PH as a poor tool for world building and simulation. It tends to lead down a rabbit hole of unintended consequences. But, to each his/her own.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Personally, I've always found that using PC chapter in the PH as a poor tool for world building and simulation. It tends to lead down a rabbit hole of unintended consequences.
While there are indeed many world-building troubles that arise, I can't imagine how they could be unintended. Homebrewing is the heart and soul of the hobby, and at this point, there's no way for the company putting out the rules to be ignorant of the fact that given the choice between using the existing rules as a foundation for new worlds and societies, and making stuff up out of thin air, people tend to choose the rules.

I'd argue that if anything, a successful play experience for a group of players and a DM should be seen as a downstream consequence of successful rules-based worldbuilding, rather than the other way around.
 

Hussar

Legend
Level (in 4E) and Challenge Rating (in 3E) are just meta-game descriptors. What the giant is - what it can actually do - must remain objective. And that's reflected in its stats - Strength, Will, attack bonus, stealth, etc.

A level 8 solo has what? Like +13 to hit? And a level 25 minion is like +30? The specific numbers aren't terribly important. The point is that, all else being equal, when attacking the same target - a moderately experienced paladin with AC 25, for example - the solo will sometimes miss in situations where the minion would not. The solo can certainly survive against successful attacks that the minion cannot.

But within the game world, to people actually watching this happen, only one of the two outcomes actually happens. The giant either hits, or it does not. It is either hurt by the paladin's retort, or it is not; and, if it is hurt, then it either drops or it does not.

As long as there are multiple game-mechanical ways to represent the same in-game thing, you will have different results depending on which one you use. At that point, it is no longer internally consistent. Thus, to maintain internal consistency and objectivity, there must be exactly one mechanical way to represent any distinct thing; and if there is a different game mechanical representation between two things, then there must be some real, substantive difference between those things as they exist within the objective reality of the game world.

This is only true if you insist that combat stat blocks are the mechanical representation of the creature in all aspects of its existence. The only problem is, this has never really been true. In 3e, in combat, everyone walks around in little 5 foot cubes. Out of combat, you can pile as many people into a Volkswagen Beetle as you wish. Stat blocks are meant to define the creature in combat only.

It would be an extremely rare case where you would have an 8th level solo and a 25th level minion in the same encounter. Why would a DM ever do that. Creatures outside of combat have no stats whatsoever in 4e. They simply don't. 4e makes no pretence about trying to be a world building engine. It isn't. Trying to use it for one will only lead to a lot of frustration and failure. 4e combat mechanics, which stat blocks are a part of, only relate to combat.

Again, there are strengths and weaknesses to trying to do it this way. But, to people in the game world, there will be no inconsistencies.
 

This is only true if you insist that combat stat blocks are the mechanical representation of the creature in all aspects of its existence. The only problem is, this has never really been true. In 3e, in combat, everyone walks around in little 5 foot cubes. Out of combat, you can pile as many people into a Volkswagen Beetle as you wish. Stat blocks are meant to define the creature in combat only.
It's not that the combat stat blocks itself represents everything about the creature, but it does reflect the true nature of a creature. Your Reflex save/defense, for example, is a reflection of your balance/coordination and your combat experience and any specialized training. All stats have meaning, based on objective facts about the creature; and, as long as those objective facts don't change, you can't claim consistency if you then change how those objective facts are represented. It's inconsistent for Gerry the Giant to sometime have AC 35 and 1hp, or sometimes have AC 18 and 50hp, because the objective facts behind why he has those stats has not changed.

I don't think anyone is arguing that 4E has ever tried to paint an objective reality, though. Everyone is pretty much in agreement that 4E was designed with either narrative or gameplay as priority, rather than simulation. I'd be surprised if they never came right out and said that it's okay to violate consistency in order to make for a better story or more interesting game. My point is only that 5E should aim to be capable of representing a consistent objective reality, as every edition prior to 4E has been designed.

For the record, though, you could fit a medium character from 3.5 into a space that's only 2.5 feet wide, and it would merely suffer massive penalties to hit and AC, etc. You could comfortably fit four people into a car, and as long as nobody was attacked or trying to attack from that position, everything would be fine.
 
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Hussar

Legend
It's not that the combat stat blocks itself represents everything about the creature, but it does reflect the true nature of a creature. Your Reflex save/defense, for example, is a reflection of your balance/coordination and your combat experience and any specialized training. All stats have meaning, based on objective facts about the creature; and, as long as those objective facts don't change, you can't claim consistency if you then change how those objective facts are represented. It's inconsistent for Gerry the Giant to sometime have AC 35 and 1hp, or sometimes have AC 18 and 50hp.

I don't think anyone is arguing that 4E has ever tried to paint an objective reality, though. Everyone is pretty much in agreement that 4E was designed with either narrative or gameplay as priority, rather than simulation. I'd be surprised if they never came right out and said that it's okay to violate consistency in order to make for a better story or more interesting game. My point is only that 5E should aim to be capable of representing a consistent objective reality, as every edition prior to 4E has been designed.

For the record, though, you could fit a medium character from 3.5 into a space that's only 2.5 feet wide, and it would merely suffer massive penalties to hit and AC, etc. You could comfortably fit four people into a car, and as long as nobody was attacked or trying to attack from that position, everything would be fine.

The thing is, if you insist that Gerry's stats are static, then Gerry can only appear on screen at certain times. There's a reason you don't see ogres in a 15th level adventure. They aren't worth putting there.

And, I disagree that earlier editions presented a consistent, objective reality. An ogre gets hit by a 1st level fighter, as hard as the fighter can hit, and shrugs it off. The 15th level fighter kills the ogre outright with average damage. What objective reality has been measured here? Our 15th level fighter has somehow become superhuman?

But, then again, I've never seen D&D as a simulation based game. I played games that were meant to be sim based like GURPS if I wanted that. D&D as a sim game is such an abject failure that I cannot really see what the fuss is about.
 

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