Sith = Evil; Jedi = Good?

[Villano]

I think the Jedi (as an organization) are LN for two reasons:

First, they left Anakin's mother as a slave. No effort was made to buy her freedom. They wanted Anakin and that's where their interest ended. Slavery was legal on Tatooine, so why bother with freeing Shmi even if she's the mother of someone they want to induct into their order?

Secondly, they were willing to use the clone army. The fact that the Jedi thought it was okay to use living beings created to fight is disturbing. I wonder if they had to create more clones to fill the ranks of those that fell. It's kind of like some kind of cannon fodder slave breeding program.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

And Ben wouldn´t be trapped on the Death Star if he wouldn`t want to do something good. He could have stayed on Tatooine.

on the flip side, however, he DID just sit around on tantooine, allowing the universe to go to hell in a handbasket, until he recieved a call for help from someone personally important to him. Nobility and sacrifice for individuals you care about on a personal level is well within the definitions of neutral, both in game terms and my personal opinion.

Another issue that comes up with the jedi/light side = good assumption is the use of mind affecting force powers. I just can't see using your powers to toy with another individuals thoughts for your own convinience as being compatible with good. (and in epII, obi wan definitly did it for his own convincience in the bar). Though to tie in to another idea, its another good (and Good) reason for jedi to avoid romantic entanglements. Especially if it is possible for the power to be used subconsiously, it calls into question to consensuality of any 'mutual' love between a jedi and non jedi...

Kahuna Burger

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

For the record, there WERE implants. Qui-gon, Anakin, and Shmi had a conversation about it. It ended with Anakin saying something like, "...and they blow you up!"

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

For the record, there WERE implants. Qui-gon, Anakin, and Shmi had a conversation about it. It ended with Anakin saying something like, "...and they blow you up!"

...and for that matter, Qui-Gon also says that he tried to bargain with Watto to let Shmi go, but Watto refused to lose two slaves.

And Welverin, slavery wasn't illegal on Tatooine, which was apparently not a member of the Republic (where slavery had been abolished). An example of the Jedi being forced to accept the laws of where they were and work within those constraints.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

on the flip side, however, he DID just sit around on tantooine, allowing the universe to go to hell in a handbasket, until he recieved a call for help from someone personally important to him. Nobility and sacrifice for individuals you care about on a personal level is well within the definitions of neutral, both in game terms and my personal opinion.

He wasn't "sitting around" by a longshot. Neither was Yoda for that matter. Both understood the part they would have to play in bringing down the Emperor. Obi-Wan watched over Luke from afar and Yoda (as the best Jedi teacher in the Galaxy) stayed safe on Dagobah until such time as Luke would come to him for training.

Alone or together, OW and Y must have known they couldn't take down the Sith. But they could make sure that the one person who could (Luke) would be guided towards that path. They became tools of Good, rather than doers of Good, essentially. Doesn't make them any less good in my estimation.

 

[Ferret]

Slavery is illegal, Qui-gon didn't just take Anakin and his mother because it suited Lucas' needs for the story. Though you could also say it would have been rather problematic.

Slavery is not illegal on tattoine.

Also I think that Sith are a 'cult' of evil jedi and that jedi refers to a force wielder. Thats just my view.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Let's take a look at the Jedi code:

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Based on that, they aren't really about doing "good". They strive for justice, balance, and complete neutrality. The ideal Jedi would be Lawful Neutral.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

He wasn't "sitting around" by a longshot. Neither was Yoda for that matter. Both understood the part they would have to play in bringing down the Emperor. Obi-Wan watched over Luke from afar and Yoda (as the best Jedi teacher in the Galaxy) stayed safe on Dagobah until such time as Luke would come to him for training.

Alone or together, OW and Y must have known they couldn't take down the Sith. But they could make sure that the one person who could (Luke) would be guided towards that path. They became tools of Good, rather than doers of Good, essentially. Doesn't make them any less good in my estimation.

thats a great story, but I don't see it describing the events of star wars. Kenobi came out of hiding when summoned by Leia for his help. Luke came to him, not the other way around. Yoda thought Luke was too old, and showed no signs of having been waiting for him.... The two elder jedi were brought back into the struggle by events beyond their control, they didn't engineer the timing. Sure we can make them agents of good by slanting the description that way, but its begging the question. I'd agree that the jedi are lawful and echew evil, but I don't consider them good with a capital G. They don't need to be to be the heroes.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Orius]

Didn't Obi-Wan say some jive to Anakin in Ep. II along the lines of "a Jedi's first commitment must be to the Force"? I get the feeling it's the same sort of rationale the Catholic Church uses to keep priests and nuns from marrying. Become a Jedi and you're married to the Force.

Yeah, and there are various Buddist sects that are celibate as well. I think Lucas probably used one or both for inspiration.

The practical explanation that the movies suggest but don't follow through on is the potential for abuse if Jedis married and procreated. Since Force powers are inherited, an unscrupulous bunch could breed powerful Jedi to create a master race. I take it that it's a big deal to the Jedi that the Force chooses its wielders, not the other way around.

But there's the flip side to that, if Force-sensitivity is genetic (and that assumption is backed up by "The Force runs strong in my family..."), celibate Jedi could over time lead to less Force-sensitivity among the various sentient spieces. In fact, that may be what is happening, because Mace (IIRC) said something to Palpatine about the jedi losing their strength (which was really stupid given that Palpatine is the bad guy ).

 

[Haradim]

I tend to rate ideal Jedi as LN, and ideal Sith as LE.

An ideal Jedi will have dedicated his or her self wholly to balance, self-improvement, and defence of the Force. They would strive to understand the Force, and their actions would be focused upon ensuring that all things remain in their proper balance. Their only attachment in life would be to the Force; such a Jedi would likely be disinterested in the peoples and places of the galaxy, save for whatever might be contrary to the 'will' of the Force. An ideal Jedi, by my estimation at least, would be no hero, and would likley never be heard of at all by non-Jedi. They would be servitors of a higher power and purpose, and only serve to better (or maybe hinder, in some respects) the galaxy due to how they preserve the nature of the Force. They train rigorously for this purpose, and focus heavily on developing their minds, bodies, and souls.

An ideal Sith would be much as one would expect from the Sith; evil, greedy, dangerous, and so forth. What would make an ideal Sith is one who survives despite what he is, and that means having control and restraint, improving themselves and finding their own personal balance that enables them to keep themselves firmly within their own grasp, while allowing them the freedom they so desire, or at least as much as they can by compromising somewhat with certain personal restraints.

Yes, I tend to see Old Republic Jedi as less than perfect specimens of what they are; I don't think any one of them would really be able to attain the 'ideal Jedi' badge. The Order is just not separate enough from the rest of the galaxy, and too active and involved, to allow for the kind of focus needed.

Then again, which Order would you rather have around? I think I'd go with potential heroes over cold, distant manipulation.

That's my 2 bits anyway.