D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[Nellisir]

... there's good reason to hope that even if the tribalism doesn't disappear, which it won't completely ever do, that it won't be nearly as big of a problem this time around.

As someone who's found himself ostensibly "in" the OSR, I think the tribalism is a lot more sound and fury than anything else, but that might also depend on which branch of the OSR you're in. I write game material for Swords & Wizardry, which is simultaneously the simplest and the most progressive of the better known retroclones. I have no animosity towards WotC or D&D; I just burned out on all the numbers. I like Pathfinder, but same problem. I really like the look of 5e, but at this point it's so amazingly easy to write stuff for S&W that I think I'll probably play 5e and write S&W.
How well the two interact is something I'm obviously curious about, but since I think 5e won't use the OGL, it's not a primary concern of mine.

 

[Morrus]

but that might also depend on which branch of the OSR you're in.

That might be unintentional humour, but it's certainly relevant to the subject at hand!

The People's Front of Judea might disagree, though. As long as the Judean Peoples' Front doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[TarionzCousin]

That might be unintentional humour, but it's certainly relevant to the subject at hand!

The People's Front of Judea might disagree, though. As long as the Judean Peoples' Front doesn't have anything to do with it.

What has TSR/WotC ever done for us?

 

[sunshadow21]

As someone who's found himself ostensibly "in" the OSR, I think the tribalism is a lot more sound and fury than anything else,

For the most part I'm inclined to agree with this, and for all that some don't care for it, I don't think it really hurt anybody that much in the long run the last go around. 4E, Pathfinder, and all the other participants ultimately failed or succeeded on their own merits, not on how loud one side or the other screamed. The one thing that WotC needs to avoid, and they seem to be doing so this time, is making it look like they are picking a fight that forces everyone into defensive positions; keeping the disagreements localized to specific issues and concerns won't necessarily decrease the volume or amount of fury, but it will ensure that there is a better chance reaching positive resolution before someone just gives up and walks away from the system completely. It also ensures that whatever overlap may exist can be taken advantage of far more effectively.

It does show that the OGL did change the game though. Before it was keep playing the same brand with the same company or move on to another company and brand. With the whole 4E/PF/OSR, it was never a question of if people were going to keep playing D&D, it was more of a question of which version and what name would be used. If WotC can learn to accept that, they can still use their superior position within the greater D&D community to their advantage; even now, they have advantages that even Paizo can't even begin to challenge if used wisely and appropriately. They won't crush all other companies out of existence, but I don't think that should be a goal being chased anyway; they need those other companies around to provide the full ecosystem in which their brand can find the most success. Cooperation with the rest of the gaming community will get them a lot farther than the stance they took with 4E.

 

[Nellisir]

That might be unintentional humour, but it's certainly relevant to the subject at hand!

Can't really get away from the subjective perspective.

 

[Nellisir]

It does show that the OGL did change the game though.

It's (often?) argued that since game rules can't be copyrighted, the OSR could've/would've happened without the OGL - but the fact is, it didn't occur until after the OGL helped educate gamers about copyright, AND most retroclones have chosen to use the OGL. So yeah, definite game changer, no question.

 

[sunshadow21]

It's (often?) argued that since game rules can't be copyrighted, the OSR could've/would've happened without the OGL - but the fact is, it didn't occur until after the OGL helped educate gamers about copyright, AND most retroclones have chosen to use the OGL. So yeah, definite game changer, no question.

The key is that the change has had both positive and negative impacts. The OSR probably wouldn't have happened without the OGL, but Pathfinder and OSR are a big part of what kept WotC in the conversation in the last few years when WotC's own product, 4E, was flailing about in comparative obscurity (at least from WotC's perspective). Even as written, the OGL still only covers part of one of at least 4 different rulesets that only WotC has full access to, not to mention all the worlds and characters that WotC has at their disposal that no one else does. The big change with the OGL is that the greater gaming community must be part of WotC's ongoing strategy if WotC wants to benefit from it. From what I've read, that's basically the whole point of it, and so it has more than succeeded in that task. When WotC fights that reality, the brand and WotC suffer, even while it offers both a level of protection from complete collapse; when they accept it, like they did when it was first put out, it can be a positive thing where the negative aspects are outshown by the positives. WotC has full control of their own fate here. The OGL created the change, but whether it's ultimately good or bad is on WotC to shape. With 4E, they didn't do so well; only time will tell how well they learned their lesson.

 

[Nellisir]

not to mention all the worlds and characters that WotC has at their disposal that no one else does.

That's where WotC lost sight of the forest for the trees, I think. Nothing, not even Golarion, has the name recognition of Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Ravneloft, and all those other intellectual properties. Game mechanics might not be copyrightable, but Tanis Half-Elven sure is.

 

[sunshadow21]

That's where WotC lost sight of the forest for the trees, I think. Nothing, not even Golarion, has the name recognition of Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Ravneloft, and all those other intellectual properties. Game mechanics might not be copyrightable, but Tanis Half-Elven sure is.

As soon as they figure that out and how to leverage that, the brand will be a true monster, and people will realize that the OGL, and the fights around it, is really of no concern. The rules are useless without a world and characters to express them.

 

[Perram]

As soon as they figure that out and how to leverage that, the brand will be a true monster, and people will realize that the OGL, and the fights around it, is really of no concern. The rules are useless without a world and characters to express them.

But it seemed to be the furthest thing from their minds. Yeah, there were setting books last time, but very few of them. And they rocked the novel landscape at the same time, losing a lot of fans there. Rules, Rules, Rules, were the focus of 4e, and I hope 5e doesn't' make the same mistake.

I will say that the changes to the Forgotten Realms was the first thing that had me looking elsewhere, and that's what led me to Golarion. And Golarion led me to Pathfinder RPG. (For awhile, my current ongoing Pathfinder Campaign was a 4e Campaign set in Golarion, after all.)