So what about the everyman?

[ptolemy18]

I guess the survivability is what bugs me. There is no chance for failure (on the most severest of scales) anymore. I remember a time when we used to hide in dungeons when the goblins came just so we didn't get the wrong end of the sword and then followed them and set up ambushes.

You know what the best thing I've heard from a 4e playtest so far was? It's hearing that one of the PCs, somebody's tiefling rogue I think, actually *DIED* in combat. Thank goodness... after hearing they were removing save-or-die effects I was half afraid they'd go that extra step and just remove PC death altogether. ^_^ Although he was a 2nd level character, and it apparently took a green dragon (!!!) to kill him and to challenge the party... so, even if it was the teeny-tiniest baby dragon, obviously the PC power level has been stepped up considerably.

 

[ptolemy18]

The thing I think you're missing, is that in all of those stories, all of those characters were not simply the everyday man.

Sure, they thought they were. They appeared to be just another average Joe doing his average thing. But each time, each one of them was able to overcome incredible odds, and discover an inner strength even they didn't know they had.

Eh. If I want "average joe with inner strength", I'll watch Naruto. (Then again, Naruto is obviously INCREDIBLY POPULAR.)

"Epic destiny" is overrated. Give me some low-fantasy, down-on-his-luck, barely-surviving, Jack Vance or Clark Ashton Smith character any day.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

In 3e, if you wanted to run an "everyman" type character, what class did you select?

Commoner, Expert or Warrior; Bilbo or Frodo might have been Aristocrats.

A first-level character in any of the adventurer classes already has a lot of quite unusual and specific training; a starting fighter isn't just a farmboy who took Grandpa's old sword from the wall and set out to look for trouble. (Now, if Grandpa, who in his youth was a member of the Duke's guards, has been teaching the promising young lad swordplay and, together with his old friend the smith, made him a crude suit of chainmail to practice moving in, it's a different matter...)

 

[VirgilCaine]

If you're thinking that they are overpowered at 4th level now, then I'm thinking you're looking at needing to go to another game or look at Ryan's E6 stuff where you never go past 6th level. I'm not sure what that other game would be, since D&D is pretty much the only game that keeps characters 'down on the farm' so to speak at early levels. Usually the focus of a character in other games is narrower, but they generally are much more competant than a low level D&D character is right out of the starting gate. About the only thing that comes to mind is GURPS.

WHFRP, perhaps?

Also, this is definitely a situation where D&D does not necessarily match the OP's tastes.

 

[glass]

The thing I think you're missing, is that in all of those stories, all of those characters were not simply the everyday man.

Sure, they thought they were. They appeared to be just another average Joe doing his average thing. But each time, each one of them was able to overcome incredible odds, and discover an inner strength even they didn't know they had.

I agree with this. Gandalf didn't just pick Bilbo's name out of a phone book. He chose him because he saw something special in him.


glass.

 

[glass]

I prefer to think that you are the one who is missing something. Only JRR can say for sure what he was thinking, but I believe the tale of The Lord of the Rings was that "the everyday man" was capable of great things; of winning the war, and coming home to the Shire.

While I wouldn't necessarily characterise Bilbo or Frodo as everymen, I would probably put Sam, Merry, and Pippin in that category.

I guess the question is: does the OP want an 'everyman' like in novels, who generally survive, or does he want a realistic everyman who dies horribly long before making it to second level? Cause honestly, the latter doesn't seem like much fun.

glass.

 

[.:avatar:.]

I think that in worst case scenario, the DMG will have optional rules to start a "lvl zero" character.

No need to worry... yet, at least.

 

[Midknightsun]

Meh, I've played my share of everymen.

Most of the time, they end up dead, face down, in a ditch.

I don't mind a some grittyness to my games (Heck, I'd love to play a Midnight Campaign), but if i want to play average-joe, I'll just be me and hang the dice up.

As both a DM and Player, I've found low level D&D to be mostly a whole lot of not-fun. Now, I have no problem with having my rear end handed to me on ocassion (Frankly, it gives me more motivation to try harder), but I've done enough low level, "Dear gods, don't let the kobold crit me with that spoon or I'm done for!," D&D to last a lifetime.

I think a little more durability would go a long way towards encouraging heroic action, instead of spending all your low levels hiding and hoping they goblins dont notice you (and your chainmail laden fighter friend).

I've actually started my last couple campaigns at third level, but I like the idea of just giving triple hit dice at first level as well, and advancing from there.

So, while I understand those who like the everyman aspect of fantasy, I can safely say that if its lacking in 4e, I won't be saddened one bit.

 

[Hussar]

I prefer to think that you are the one who is missing something. Only JRR can say for sure what he was thinking, but I believe the tale of The Lord of the Rings was that "the everyday man" was capable of great things; of winning the war, and coming home to the Shire.

They did special things, but they weren't "special." Well, maybe Aragorn was "born special", but not the others. Any number of Hobbits, given the same task and set down the same path, would have had the same (slim) odds of "overcoming incredible odds, and discovering an inner strength even they didn't know they had."

Umm, wasn't Frodo directly decended from Hobbit heroes? As I recall Took clan Hobbits were known to be adventurers. Gimli and Leggylass were hardly nobodies. Boromir was hardly an everyman. Aragorn was 80 years old and one of the last of a superior race. Gandalf was an angel.

That leaves Sam.

Even LoTR is hardly a story of "everyman".

 

[Irda Ranger]

I guess the survivability is what bugs me. There is no chance for failure (on the most severest of scales) anymore.

Then your DM is being easy on you.

Seriously; the PC's cannot win against a DM who decides to kill you / really effin' challenge you. If you feel like there's no risk, that's the DM's fault.

What has gone down is the random chance of death; that I'll grant you. You're less likely to die because of a single sword stroke (although a single crit from a Orc with a greataxe can kill anyone under 3rd level). But personally, I think that's a good thing. Who wants to go to all the trouble of making a character (rules and backstory) only to have them end up in a ditch because of one lousy roll of the dice? Personally, if my character comes down with a case of dead, I want to at least feel like he earned it.