D&D 5E (2014) So Where my Witches at?

[cbwjm]

so in the writing, it would state all abilities use your casting stat?

Yep, If you gained the ability to curse someone, for instance, it would specify that it is resisted against your spellcasting DC. Abilities with limited uses might use your proficiency modifier for number of uses since that seems to be the way the designers are moving anyway.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Having said that, a witch subclass could be perfect for druid and wizard. They are the only two classes (I think) that gain subclass levels at the same time so you could make a witch subclass that can be taken by either a druid or a wizard as long as the abilities don't rely on the main class's abilities.

You could also always make it a prestige class that continues progression in a full caster's base class spellcasting and let both druids and wizards qualify (and probably bards, sorcerers, and/or warlocks too). While I'm largely glad the abortive UA attempt at making prestige classes a thing fizzled, I think if there is a sensible place for such a thing in 5e it is when you have a subclass that feels like it should be the subclass of multiple classes.

But I think it is actually one of those rare character concepts not already developed in 5e that could really merit its own class, given that it doesn't quite sit comfortably within any existing class and that cultural depictions of witches are common and diverse enough to inspire plenty of different subclasses without really having to get terribly inventive.

 

[Azuresun]

question what is the more or less conceptual niche of the witch?

Nobody in pop culture can quite agree on that! In urban fantasy, "witch" is often a general term for "spellcaster, usually inherited through bloodline", and would be a Sorcerer. In the pagan / neopagan definition, they would probably be closest to Druids. In the "Malleus Maleficarum" definition, they would be a Fiend Warlock.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Nobody in pop culture can quite agree on that! In urban fantasy, "witch" is often a general term for "spellcaster, usually inherited through bloodline", and would be a Sorcerer. In the pagan / neopagan definition, they would probably be closest to Druids. In the "Malleus Maleficarum" definition, they would be a Fiend Warlock.

so two-thirds Theurgy but no one can narrow down who they work for, does everyone agree on what it would have to be able to do at least?

 

[Remathilis]

I have a book for making 3e witches (The Witch's Handbook, by Steve Kenson), but it is not an official book. It is one of those small add on books released under the OGL. It provides the witch as a core class that is a hybrid cleric-druid, as well as prestige classes that can be good or evil. The Infernal Witch is one of the evil prestige classes I remember. Others include the Shaper, Witch Hag, Witch Priestess/Priest and Witch's Champion.

I own that. I didn't reference it because it was third party (not WotC/TSR) but it was certainly a good version of the witch concept.

 

[Blue Orange]

I own that. I didn't reference it because it was third party (not WotC/TSR) but it was certainly a good version of the witch concept.

From TSR sources, there was also one in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Vol. 3 (2e) and Van Richten's Arsenal (3e).

Citizen Games had one too (Way of the Witch), as did Mongoose (The Quintessential Witch), Lions' Den Press (Classes of Legend: the Witch), and The Le Games (Unorthodox Witches). When you get to the third-party stuff, there's no end to it: Role Aids had a sourcebook for 1e, Bard Games had one in the Compleat Spellcaster, Blueholme and ACKS have witch classes in the OSR...

Tim Brannan has a whole list of the homebrew stuff.

Witch Links

Curated links to RPG Witch content on the internet.

theotherside.timsbrannan.com

 

[Remathilis]

question what is the more or less conceptual niche of the witch?

So here are my brainstorm thoughts on this. They are a little raw...

Witches are spellcasters who learn their magic from some alternate way, and that alternate is a little... unsettling... to others. It could be magic from fiends, hags, deities, or the like, or some manner of folk "old" magic. Their magic is a little bit strange, even if the effects are like what a normal spellcaster produces.

As far as effects go, a witch's magic focuses on charms (robbing people of agency), curses (robbing them of ability) and polymorphs (robbing them of identity). There are secondary themes of nature (a witch is often rural and has some ability over the land), divination, and summoning (fey, fiends, shadows, the like). Tertiary, healing/herbalism and a touch of necromancy and general spellcasting (flight, etc.) round out the package. The thing I feel is that a witches magic is a little more subtle than traditional wizardly magic; some have said closer to a bard's list mixed with some of the spookier parts of the warlocks, but lacking the raw evocation damage that warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers are known for.

Part of the problem with warlock is most of the current warlock patrons that thematically fit tend to focus on damage (fiend is pure blaster, hexblade is about melee weapons) with only the archfey feeling like the subtle trickster in the mix (and that feels more Midsummer Night's Dream than Macbeth). Whereas wizard feels more at home with spellcasting, but none of the current subs really feel they nail the mix of witchy and instead focus on one aspect (divination, enchantment, transmutation) rather than give a general kit of witchy features.

There is a good argument to be made for a proper twenty level class to capture all the essence of the witch, but I think you could probably still fit it into a subclass or two (akin to how shadow mage is spread out among a few subclasses, or how divine/celestial magic is primarily clerical but also a sub-option for warlocks and sorcerers). I just don't feel the archetype is well served under the warlock's mechanics at the moment.

 

[Asisreo]

I think the basic problem for making a witch it 5e is that Warlock has mined a lot of the lore of witches (particularly the core warlock lore of a pact with the devil or whatever) but doesn't quite fulfill the promise of witchdom. It takes a specific pact boon/invocation combination just to get them ritually casting, which seems like the most basic qualifier to be a witch, and then they don't get access to Polymorph so they have to wait for True Polymorph at 17th level before they can do anything so fundamental to what I expect out of a witch as turning someone into a newt.

Of course some people's ideas of witches run more druidy, Wizard's get the most ready access to familiars and extensive ritual casting, and Bards may well have the most witchy spell list.

Which all serves to put them in a hazy and liminal enough space between classes that I'd say they should get their own class in the alternate universe version of 5e that has like 20 different classes.

I mostly agree with this. Just a reminder that a Warlock does have access to Polymorph as a Invocation: Sculptor of Flesh.

 

[Blue Orange]

I have to say, the huge list of third-party and TSR/WotC incarnations does show how much the idea appeals to some people.

Core idea seems to be rural wizard + healing - mass damage spells. Drop the Evocation school and give them access to healing spells, though probably not all the way up to Raise Dead, at least not for good witches ("sometimes, dead is better").

Goes back to folklore, since Circe and Merlin didn't cast fireballs. The fireball-and-lightning-chucking wizard seems to be a D&D invention.

 

[Remathilis]

I have to say, the huge list of third-party and TSR/WotC incarnations does show how much the idea appeals to some people.

Core idea seems to be rural wizard + healing - mass damage spells. Drop the Evocation school and give them access to healing spells, though probably not all the way up to Raise Dead, at least not for good witches ("sometimes, dead is better").

Goes back to folklore, since Circe and Merlin didn't cast fireballs. The fireball-and-lightning-chucking wizard seems to be a D&D invention.

I think you're onto something, the call for a witch is probably a reaction to D&D's wizard being focused on combat magic (and the sorcerer and warlock moreso) rather than on more passive magics. The witch isn't a combat mage (though they can defend themselves), they are more into support and trickery magic. Sorta like the bard fills a support role rather than a blaster role. And if we are talking a new 20 level class, I could totally see a witch class built off a wizard chassis (d6, robes and staff) with a mix of bardic, druid, and warlock magic being their bag.

But since D&D isn't exactly keen on adding whole new classes, I think it could've been an area subclasses might have filled the niche. Again, I point to the celestial warlock or divine soul sorcerer as an example of taking another classes main theme (cleric/paladin) and giving a taste of it to another class to expand the options of the class without diluting the original. A Witchcraft wizard tradition could mix in a few druidic and/or warlocky abilities to give the wizard a natural and/or sinister option. A Circle of the Coven could likewise give druids access to some necromantic or cursing abilities from the warlock or necromancer.

and if there was ever a time to put a witch subclass in the game, the book of options named after a witch (and references witchery several time s in the text) probably was the best time to do it.