D&D 5E Sorcerer spell list - why so short?

[jayoungr]

The complaint isn't that sorcerers are mechanically weak; it's that their strengths don't do a great job matching the archetype.

I've been following this discussion, and I didn't get that from the first few pages at all. What is the "archetype," and what doesn't match it?

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I've been following this discussion, and I didn't get that from the first few pages at all. What is the "archetype," and what doesn't match it?

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I consider the core archetype to be a guy (or gal) whose magic is innate, derived from their own essence rather than an external force or formula. As such, that magic should be more flexible but less complex than a wizard's spells. Moreover, the sorcerer's magic is closely tied to a particular bloodline, so (for example) a draconic sorcerer should have access to dragon-type spells, like fear effects, breath blasts, and probably stuff like fly and shapechange.

The 5e sorcerer is shooting for a lot of these same goals, but I don't feel like it quite gets there. Metamagic combined with a restricted spell list doesn't quite manage "flexible but less complex," especially when it's tied to a sorcery point system that makes resource management actually MORE complex than a wizard.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Why is it so hard to believe? In previous editions sorcerers had clear unique advantages from first level, along with unique limits and restrictions. 5e has the clear limits and restrictions from level 1 -which are harsher than ever- but they have no clear payoff until very high levels, Is it so wrong to want more uniqueness from day 1?

A free 24-hour mage armor, extra health, a free language are hardly insignificant benefits. Nor is guaranteed advantage on at least one attack roll/skill check/ and or save.

A possibly overpowered combo doesn't necessarily make a class worthy. More so if it means losing out on many useful spells because they could be overpowered if twinned.(And if those same overpowered combos could be pulled out by a multiclassed bard or wizard who poached twin spell via multiclassing)

Twin spell works with any number of spells. These are examples, not broken combinations. Do you require more?

Yes, it can be useful -and something to love-, but it is costly, and wild magic is very unreliable and dangerous. You are better off with Lucky.

Which is the POINT of wild magic.

Another lovely thing, but it is easily poachable by a short dip. And I don't know you, but third level is too high. What about the first two levels? don't we deserve to feel sorcerous at low level too? Subtle spell -or at least no material components- should be something all sorcerers can do for free.

You don't...find those sentences at all contradictory, do you?

Again, for most of your career as sorcerer you can only do two things out of all of those,(just like the bard, warlock or wizard dipping to get them, and they have all of those extra unique spells) And so far your examples are limited on how to make a given spell better, but not necessarily replace the need for more spells, without things like admixture and energy substitution metamagic barely justifies the class having so few spells, both at any time and in general.

A fighter only gets one action surge (per SR). A rogue can only use cunning action on a limited number of action types. Does that make either ability somehow not worthwhile, flavorful, nor powerful?

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I've seen this kind of counterargument pop up multiple times and I really think it missed the point. The complaint isn't that sorcerers are mechanically weak; it's that their strengths don't do a great job matching the archetype. For starters, I don't understand why they don't get subclass-specific spells like clerics and warlocks. I'm also unclear why they are significantly worse for multiclassing or Gish builds than clerics, warlocks, bards, or even friggin' wizards; to me, "dragon sorcerer" screams "badass combination of elemental magic and fighting skill," not "wizard who can haste two guys at once." If I actually wanted to play the kind of draconic sorcerer that makes sense to me, I could do it as a monk, a wizard (abjurer looks cool), a warlock, a paladin, a spoony freakin' bard... but not a sorcerer.

I think you'll find if you read past the second sentence of my post that it WAS in fact about flavor/uniqueness rather than power per se. Flavor is ultimately a matter of personal opinion - thus not really debatable (and, for the record, contrast that word with discussable). But the existing sorcerer works perfectly fine for me from that standpoint. Similarly, the sorcerer is not all significantly worse for multiclassing/gish builds. Unless by gish build you mean take a single level of sorcerer...in which case a single level is a silly measure by which to judge an entire class. Quicken spell synergizes quite nicely with full attacks for example - allowing spellcasting AND martial combat simultaneously. Maximum sorcery points will be a bit low as a multiclass character...but given that one can trade spell slots for them, this is not an insurmountable barrier.

That all said, it would have easy enough to write a couple unique spells like, say, a (sorcerer-only) dragon's breath spell; perhaps allowing something like a 30 foot cone of variable energy in the same vein as chromatic orb. Might have gone some of the way toward balancing the number of spells each draconic type applies to.

 

[Dausuul]

That all said, it would have easy enough to write a couple unique spells like, say, a (sorcerer-only) dragon's breath spell; perhaps allowing something like a 30 foot cone of variable energy in the same vein as chromatic orb. Might have gone some of the way toward balancing the number of spells each draconic type applies to.

I was just thinking that. Something like this:

BREATH OF THE DRAGON
3rd-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (30-foot cone)
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

This spell is actually five spells, each of which must be learned separately. Each spell deals a different type of damage; breath of the black dragon deals acid damage, breath of the white dragon deals cold, breath of the green dragon deals poison, breath of the blue dragon deals lightning, and breath of the red dragon deals fire.

When you cast this spell, you open your mouth and exhale a blast of energy of the appropriate type in a 30-foot cone in front of you. Each creature in the area of effect must make a saving throw; Dexterity for the black, blue, and red versions of the spell, or Constitution for the white and green. Those that fail take 8d6 damage, while those that succeed take half damage.

Higher Levels:​ When you cast this spell using a slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.

 

[Joe Liker]

In general, I find it's better to figure out my character concept first, and then choose the class that will do the best job of expressing that concept mechanically. You can completely ignore the fluff of any class if you must. It's safer to rewrite the fluff as needed to fit your concept.

A far more frustrating (and unnecessary) path is to choose a class first and then try to nibble around its mechanical edges until it fits the concept you think it should, or what it was in a previous edition. Take a fresh look at the 5e classes and see what they can do already, not how you can force them to do what they shouldn't.

A perfect example is that other thread where someone wanted a Dex-based two-handed katana fighter, and helpful posters suggested that the monk class with the staff refluffed into a katana (with staff stats) would be a better fit.

 

[MoonSong]

A free 24-hour mage armor, extra health, a free language are hardly insignificant benefits. Nor is guaranteed advantage on at least one attack roll/skill check/ and or save.

A mage armor roughly equivalent to light armor -as bards and warlocks-, health roughly equivalent to bards and warlocks and less so, since your hit dice is unchanged. And a free language, which is traditionally a wizard language. (As for the auto-advantage, again see Lucky)

Twin spell works with any number of spells. These are examples, not broken combinations. Do you require more?

But it is the reason sorcerers didn't get other spells that could be broken in combo. Twin spell was really unnescessary for the sorcerer feel, and if having it means no access to good spells, then the solution was to remove twin spell, not to remove the spells. And again, it doesn't really justify the class

Which is the POINT of wild magic.

But shouldn't be the point of the class, as it is right now, if you decide the wizard is not for you, you are automatically a monster or a dangerous walking timebomb, or an evil cultist who sold their soul for power. It is almost as if the designers loathed people not liking wizards and forced negative connotations or huge limits upon all other classes.

You don't...find those sentences at all contradictory, do you?

No. It is perfectly possible for a single level range to be too much in certain circumstances and not enough in others. Third level is way too much to start being useful as a sorcerer. And too short in order to get all of the options of a sorcerer for a dip.

A fighter only gets one action surge (per SR). A rogue can only use cunning action on a limited number of action types. Does that make either ability somehow not worthwhile, flavorful, nor powerful?

I'm not talking about power, in fact I'm more or less complaining that people focus too much in power peaks to notice the class has lots of problems. Many of them are flavor problems, but some others are mechanical, being most of your career with only two kinds of metamagic available or less -when metamagic is the core of the class- is problematic, and that some options are potentially so overpowered with certain spells that those spells aren't avaiable to the sorcerer is just wrong, being confined into a fairly narrow niche -which isn't even an exclusive niche- is terrible. Cunning action and action surge on the other hand aren't the core of their respective classes, they are being a baddass with weapons and super skilled + sneak attack, things the classes can do from day 1.

 

[Stalker0]

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I consider the core archetype to be a guy (or gal) whose magic is innate, derived from their own essence rather than an external force or formula. As such, that magic should be more flexible but less complex than a wizard's spells.

Yes, in some ways I think the warlock mechanics actually fit this archetype better.

I will say there are few wizard things that I think make more sense for a sorc...such as signature spell.

One of the things I would have loved to see for the sorc was the complete removal of components (except expensive ones). Let the wizard make the fancy hand gestures and speak the big words to draw in magic that is not their own...but let the sorc JUST DO IT!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Many of them are flavor problems, but some others are mechanical, being most of your career with only two kinds of metamagic available or less -when metamagic is the core of the class- is problematic, .

How do you think it would work if you replaced the 'sorcerous origin feature' at 6th level and 14th level with an additional metamagic instead?

That way the character class stays with the 'feature every even level', but you're not getting freebies, it is a replacement for an otherwise valuable feature.

It would work for someone who thematically maybe has some of the blood of the dragon in them but isn't transforming into a monster, or has some of the wild magic about them but doesn't get control of it.

I can't help wishing that they had included just one other sorcerer theme in there alongside dragon and wild magic though. Something celestial or elemental or fey would have been nice.

Hmmm.

I wonder if a suitable elemental variant could be built on the skeleton of the draconic sorcerer?

 

[Zelc]

How do you think it would work if you replaced the 'sorcerous origin feature' at 6th level and 14th level with an additional metamagic instead?

I proposed this Sorcerous Origin a while back:

Arcane Origin
Your innate abilities comes from a deep connection with the fabric of magic. You may have descended from some magical being, or you may have developed your abilities after close contact with the raw essence of magic.

Magical Secrets
At the 1st level, you learn two spells of your choice from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Sorcerer table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as sorcerer spells for you but don't count against the number of sorcerer spells you know.

When you gain a level in this class, you can choose one spell gained from this ability and replace it with another spell from any class, which must also be of a level for which you have spell slots or a cantrip.

You learn two additional spells from any class at the 6th, 14th, and 18th level.

(At level 20, this Sorcerer has 23 spells known: 1 more than a College of Valor Bard and 1 less than a College of Lore Bard)

Extra Sorcery Points
At the 1st level, you gain 2 additional Sorcery points and you can use the Flexible Casting ability to create spell slots.

You gain 2 additional Sorcery points at the 6th, 14th, and 18th level.

Extra Metamagic
You learn one additional Metamagic option at the 6th, 14th, and 18th level.

(At level 18, this Sorcerer will learn 6 out of the 8 available Metamagic options)

It looks like a lot, but only the extra sorcery points are raw power. The rest is extra flexibility.