D&D 5E Sorcerer spell list - why so short?

[Dausuul]

I wouldn't knock shocking grasp! It makes your entire party immune to opportunity attacks from the target until its next turn.

Opportunity attacks have been scaled so far back in 5E that this seldom matters. Sure, it's nice to allow you, the sorcerer, to get out of melee range; but the rest of the party is unlikely to care.

And against that, you have to set the enormous disadvantage that the spell requires you to be in melee range in the first place. In my experience, attack cantrips mostly see use when the remaining enemies aren't important enough to burn leveled spells on; your primary goal is to avoid taking damage and making unnecessary work for the cleric. So you stand in the back and throw fire bolts or rays of frost, while the fighter takes the heat. Getting up in the enemy's grille is the last thing you want to do.

 

[AmerginLiath]

Frankly, I'm not convinced that they put that much thought into it. The spell lists look fairly random to me. To take another example, the bard list is pretty wide open, with lots of spells that feel at odds with the music/speech theme.

Since part of the concern that Plane Sailing (and other convert-from-Sorcerers I've seen) have had is the issue of Charisma vs. Intelligence if they use Wizard as a chassis, I actually wonder how the 5e Lore Bard would be as a vehicle for convert a 3.5 illusionist-style Sorcerer? Even a Sorcerer/Bard multiclass to get metamagic and the preferred spell list might be an interesting concept for someone with more build-fu than I have to plot out...

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Since part of the concern that Plane Sailing (and other convert-from-Sorcerers I've seen) have had is the issue of Charisma vs. Intelligence if they use Wizard as a chassis, I actually wonder how the 5e Lore Bard would be as a vehicle for convert a 3.5 illusionist-style Sorcerer? Even a Sorcerer/Bard multiclass to get metamagic and the preferred spell list might be an interesting concept for someone with more build-fu than I have to plot out...

As DM i would certainly allow a player to just use a wizard with cha instead of int (and maybe even spell points from the dmg) if they wanted sorcerer flavor without the current mechanics. (Maybe stick them with the spells known limit if there was another wizard in the party.)

 

[MoonSong]

Since part of the concern that Plane Sailing (and other convert-from-Sorcerers I've seen) have had is the issue of Charisma vs. Intelligence if they use Wizard as a chassis, I actually wonder how the 5e Lore Bard would be as a vehicle for convert a 3.5 illusionist-style Sorcerer? Even a Sorcerer/Bard multiclass to get metamagic and the preferred spell list might be an interesting concept for someone with more build-fu than I have to plot out...

Actually that is the one solution that can be used, A lore bard 10/Wild Sorcerer 10(agreeing with the DM not to roll for surges nor using wild features ever) feels allows for a good conversion of 3.5 sorcerers. If getting 9th level spells is a must, Bard 3/Sorcerer 17 (or the other way around)fulfills the quota fairly well. It allows you to keep some stuff that was taken away -like a familiar, invisible servants, some actual weapon capability and stuff-.

 

[Dausuul]

As DM i would certainly allow a player to just use a wizard with cha instead of int (and maybe even spell points from the dmg) if they wanted sorcerer flavor without the current mechanics. (Maybe stick them with the spells known limit if there was another wizard in the party.)

I would impose a small penalty--say, you don't ever get to change your prepared spells--to compensate for getting to use Cha instead of Int as your primary stat.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I've been looking to see whether my 3.5e sorcerer characters could be moved across to 5e, and it turns out to be quite difficult because a number of spells which were important to them are no longer on the sorcerer spell list!

I can see that they have given the sorcerer some of the damaging spells from other class lists (e.g. firestorm), but find it rather odd if they are supposed to only concentrate on being blasters. Without Magic Circle my demonologist sorcerer is a bit stuck, for instance!

Losing the possibility of Shapechange is a bit of a blow for future plans too.

What are poor sorcerers to do? Is there particular rhyme and reason for these changes that you can see?

Part of what is happening here is that sorcerers are more concentrated on their story.

The story of a sorcerer is that they have innate magic in their blood. That leads to spontaneous, fluid magic. X-men mutant powers.

It does not lead one to being able to draw magic circles to imprison fiends. Drawing that circle is a precise, controlled ritual -- more in the wizard's wheelhouse or the warlock's.

If the important bit about your sorcerer was that he could summon demons, go warlock or wizard, and summon demons.

If the important bit about your sorcerer was that he had magic in his blood, maybe just take a little dip into Ritual Caster in a multiclass at some point to get the demon-summoning abilities.

Sorcerers are not just an alternate spellcasting mechanic now. They have their own narrative, their own identity, their own mechanically implemented design scheme. Don't just be a sorcerer because you want spontaneous magic. Be a sorcerer because you want fluid, flexible, untrained, raw, blood-magic. If that wasn't the important bit of your character, don't be afraid to swap them out for some other class.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I think that the changes would be more palatable if Sorcerors had access to a couple of very distinctive spells that other spellcasters don't have on their list, like the Warlock's Hex.

 

[EroGaki]

I think my issue with the sorcerer is that their main niche is having a tiny list of spells known and modifying those spells with metamagic, but then only getting a few meta magics; they have 2 for the bulk of the game, only getting a third at 10th and a 4th at 17th. IMO, that isn't nearly enough if you're going to be stuck with a maximum of 15 spells know at 20th level.

It would have made more sense if they gained meta magic at the same rate as a warlock gains invocations, for example. As it stands, they're main special quality remains the same for the first 10 levels of the game; I rarely get to play above 9th level before our games end.

 

[Celtavian]

I think my issue with the sorcerer is that their main niche is having a tiny list of spells known and modifying those spells with metamagic, but then only getting a few meta magics; they have 2 for the bulk of the game, only getting a third at 10th and a 4th at 17th. IMO, that isn't nearly enough if you're going to be stuck with a maximum of 15 spells know at 20th level.

It would have made more sense if they gained meta magic at the same rate as a warlock gains invocations, for example. As it stands, they're main special quality remains the same for the first 10 levels of the game; I rarely get to play above 9th level before our games end.

They do seem very weak and limited. Not sure whey they didn't include an expanded spell list based on their archetype. It seems like that would have greatly improved them. Right now, they aren't a very attractive class. They are probably the least interesting class in the book.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Neither actually.

I'm interested in discussion about "why the sorcerer spell list has been shortened".

My interest is sparked by the difficulty in converting across either of my 3.5e sorcerers, but that isn't the be-all and end-all of the conversation. Nor has it been at any point whether the class is a 'good' class or not.

That's fine, but it did seem to me as if the crux was the point of the conversation. You ask why the sorcerer's spell list is short because in trying to convert you've found it lacking. In the middle of this, the conversation has also turned to whether or not the sorcerer stands up to how they've been before with a shortened spell list, which is where I got the other portion of that. If this is not the case, then I apologize.

There have been some interesting and helpful observations brought up, such as

* omits 'named' spells. makes sense, since they are clearly invented by specific wizards
* omits mostly spells which are more than one action to cast. Not entirely true, but this would make sense to avoid being troublesome with quickened metamagic
* maybe omits some other spells which would be problematic when metamagic is taken into consideration. Not sure exactly to what degree this is the case.

This still leaves some oddities, like higher level illusions and magical protections which are missing in action.

I feel like all of the above answers your below oddities. The higher level illusions and magical protections were likely found to be far too broken in the context of metamagic, and were therefore removed. But I find kamikazemidget's explanation to be the superior one in this regard. Sorcerers are innate magic users, everything they do comes from their own mind. Therefore, a lot of the high level stuff that requires complex components or rituals had to be eliminated, as a person that knew how to do those things would be a wizard not a sorcerer. If this doesn't satisfy you, well, 5e is easily homebrewed!