D&D 5E Sorcerer spell selection

[MoonSong]

There's a huge difference between "I disagree with you" or "I think you're mistaken," and "you are lying to me." Words are important. Please think twice when choosing your phrasing in the future; accusing someone of lying (when that isn't their intent) is a great way to start an argument and derail a thread!

Thanks.

Sorry, a transference from my mother tongue. Changed it.

 

[steeldragons]

Bold part is just not true, wizards get more castings than sorcerers, sorcerers at best can reach the same number of castings at certain levels. First level wizard, has two slots -same as the sorcerer- and can regain one -something the sorcerer cannot do until 2nd level- not to mention ritual casting. The number of castings is even further reduced at alter levels, as sorcerer points are used to power metamagic and thus cannot be used to cast more spells.

This is also not true...or at best hyperbole.

Flexible Spellcasting, page 101. You absolutely can use your spell points to get more slots...and/or burn slots to give yourself more spell points to use metamagic with. This, obviously, doesn't have any baring on your spell known. But it gives you comparable castings.

Those are player-point options/choices. Your sorcerer can "make more magic" or "make the magic I have do this cool trick I figured out". Those are options you get to play with for choosing to be a sorcerer. There is nothing "wrong" with the sorcerer's casting/slots/spells known because of this.

So while, yes, you have to wait alll the way to 2nd level before you can get an extra casting, the wizard is hardly running away with the casting.

Ritual casting is nice, to be sure. But it is only applicable to spells, in their spellbook, with the ritual tag...so the wizard must 1) have the spell to begin with, and 2) have the time to use/cast it "as a ritual." While the wizard hunts down useful rituals to learn or spending their 10 minutes-hour chanting away to float the treasure out of the dungeon, the sorcerer is busy metamagicking their spells known to blast the oncoming orcs before they slay the whole party. Again, not exactly pressing the sorcerer's face in the mud.

And at later levels wizards get at-will magic of 1st to 3rd level.

At 18th level they get 1 1st and 1 2nd at their 1st and 2nd slot power level at will, yes. How useful do you think that will be to an 18th level party? Sure, the wizard can auto-featherfal' or auto-detect magic or auto-invisible...or auto-spam-attack-spells doing next to no damage against 18+ level foes. How game-breaky is that going to be to an 18th level game? How "unbalanced" or "unfair" to the sorcerer is that?

At 20th level they get 2 3rd they can cast, as 3rd level slots once without preparation. The fluff is you "always know them"/they don't count against your prepared spells for the day...not that they can be cast all day at will, just that you know them automatically. This is not exactly something to 'cry havoc' about.

Now, if this is simply, I should be able to cast MOAR [as much as a wizard]! Then there is no pleasing sorcerer fans.

Also quantity is not the same as quality, Sorcerers get a "huge" list, but most of these spells are only sixty different ways to fry a kobold.

So, now, the argument/target/goal post is they should be given more spell castings slots or more spells known? And/or more versatile spell options in their spell lists?

What's going to "fix" these poor poor sorcerers?

Again, complete hyperbole.
Sorcerers have [cantrips] Dancing Lights, Friends, Mage Hand and Message, [1st] Detect Magic, Charm Person, Featherfall, Expeditious Retreat, [2nd] Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, [3rd] Clairvoyance, Fly, Tongues, Water Breathing...and that's not even scratching the surface at only 4 possibilities each spell level.

There is no "quality/mostly blasty spells" argument to be made.

And a wizard can have prepared more spells than you'll ever know, how is that balanced?

Let's take, say, 5th level PCs...all other things being equal...
Wizard:
Spells Prepared: 5 + Int. mod., so...what...with a hypothetical +5 Int. mod., no more than 10.
Spell Slots: [4 1st/3 2nd/2 3rd] = 9 spell castings + Arcane Recovery (if it gets used, as [rounded up] 3rd level) for additional 4 1st, 2 2nd = 6 castings...Note that these are expended slots! You can recover up to 4 1st and 2 2nd slots if you've already cast them. So there is no guarantee [and extremely unlikely on a daily basis] a wizard could regain all of these slots. But let's just say they do.
Total castings per day: 15.
Spell choices to have at-the-ready: 10.

Sorcerer:
Spells Known: 6.
Spell Slots: [4 1st/3 2nd/2 3rd] = 9 spell castings + Spell Points: 5 gets you 1 additional 3rd level spell, 1 2nd and 1 1st, or 2 1st + 1 leftover SP for metamagic. So max, 2 extra castings or...
Total castings per day: 11.
Spell choices to have at-the-ready: 6.

Pound for pound, more or less, the sorcerer gets half choices for their total castings.

Proportionally, the wizard gets a couple [exactly, 2 in the above example] more options. They are the "default" class of the arcane magic-users, the broadest archetype, the largest spectrum of possible characters.

The wizard,, yes, can "change it up" every day by studying different spells from their spellbooks. That's what they do.

The sorcerer can not do that. They can only swap out 1 spell at each level up. That's completely in keeping with the sorcerer's fluff. It's why they're oh so necessary as a separate class: Innate magic-users who know/figured out magic without study or preparation. That's what they do.

That all makes sense. I'm not willing to say 2 extra spell choices and classes filling their fluffy archetypal bits is unfair/broken/wrong.

That's pretty balanced.

 

[MoonSong]

This is also not true...or at best hyperbole.

Flexible Spellcasting, page 101. You absolutely can use your spell points to get more slots...and/or burn slots to give yourself more spell points to use metamagic with. This, obviously, doesn't have any baring on your spell known. But it gives you comparable castings.

Those are player-point options/choices. Your sorcerer can "make more magic" or "make the magic I have do this cool trick I figured out". Those are options you get to play with for choosing to be a sorcerer. There is nothing "wrong" with the sorcerer's casting/slots/spells known because of this.

So while, yes, you have to wait alll the way to 2nd level before you can get an extra casting, the wizard is hardly running away with the casting.

Ritual casting is nice, to be sure. But it is only applicable to spells, in their spellbook, with the ritual tag...so the wizard must 1) have the spell to begin with, and 2) have the time to use/cast it "as a ritual." While the wizard hunts down useful rituals to learn or spending their 10 minutes-hour chanting away to float the treasure out of the dungeon, the sorcerer is busy metamagicking their spells known to blast the oncoming orcs before they slay the whole party. Again, not exactly pressing the sorcerer's face in the mud.


At 18th level they get 1 1st and 1 2nd at their 1st and 2nd slot power level at will, yes. How useful do you think that will be to an 18th level party? Sure, the wizard can auto-featherfal' or auto-detect magic or auto-invisible...or auto-spam-attack-spells doing next to no damage against 18+ level foes. How game-breaky is that going to be to an 18th level game? How "unbalanced" or "unfair" to the sorcerer is that?

At 20th level they get 2 3rd they can cast, as 3rd level slots once without preparation. The fluff is you "always know them"/they don't count against your prepared spells for the day...not that they can be cast all day at will, just that you know them automatically. This is not exactly something to 'cry havoc' about.

Now, if this is simply, I should be able to cast MOAR [as much as a wizard]! Then there is no pleasing sorcerer fans.



So, now, the argument/target/goal post is they should be given more spell castings slots or more spells known? And/or more versatile spell options in their spell lists?

What's going to "fix" these poor poor sorcerers?

Again, complete hyperbole.
Sorcerers have [cantrips] Dancing Lights, Friends, Mage Hand and Message, [1st] Detect Magic, Charm Person, Featherfall, Expeditious Retreat, [2nd] Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, [3rd] Clairvoyance, Fly, Tongues, Water Breathing...and that's not even scratching the surface at only 4 possibilities each spell level.

There is no "quality/mostly blasty spells" argument to be made.



Let's take, say, 5th level PCs...all other things being equal...
Wizard:
Spells Prepared: 5 + Int. mod., so...what...with a hypothetical +5 Int. mod., no more than 10.
Spell Slots: [4 1st/3 2nd/2 3rd] = 9 spell castings + Arcane Recovery (if it gets used, as [rounded up] 3rd level) for additional 4 1st, 2 2nd = 6 castings...Note that these are expended slots! You can recover up to 4 1st and 2 2nd slots if you've already cast them. So there is no guarantee [and extremely unlikely on a daily basis] a wizard could regain all of these slots. But let's just say they do.
Total castings per day: 15.
Spell choices to have at-the-ready: 10.

Sorcerer:
Spells Known: 6.
Spell Slots: [4 1st/3 2nd/2 3rd] = 9 spell castings + Spell Points: 5 gets you 1 additional 3rd level spell, 1 2nd and 1 1st, or 2 1st + 1 leftover SP for metamagic. So max, 2 extra castings or...
Total castings per day: 11.
Spell choices to have at-the-ready: 6.

Pound for pound, more or less, the sorcerer gets half choices for their total castings.

Proportionally, the wizard gets a couple [exactly, 2 in the above example] more options. They are the "default" class of the arcane magic-users, the broadest archetype, the largest spectrum of possible characters.

The wizard,, yes, can "change it up" every day by studying different spells from their spellbooks. That's what they do.

The sorcerer can not do that. They can only swap out 1 spell at each level up. That's completely in keeping with the sorcerer's fluff. It's why they're oh so necessary as a separate class: Innate magic-users who know/figured out magic without study or preparation. That's what they do.

That all makes sense. I'm not willing to say 2 extra spell choices and classes filling their fluffy archetypal bits is unfair/broken/wrong.

That's pretty balanced.

Is it balanced that a wizard can simply decide to make the sorcerer in the party irrelevant by doing exactly the same things and still have room to do things the sorcerer cannot do? Sorcerers deserve to have their niches too, and this is for fairness alone. If I'm running only being able to do two things I rather do them better than the guy who can casually do everything. This is currently not true for the sorcerer.

And it is not true that the wizard is this all-encompassing generic spellcaster. Thematically you cannot really duplicate a sorcerer with a wizard, can you truly do a wizard who doesn't want to be a wizard, who hates doing magic, but has no control over it? (You can't, such a wizard would have burned her spellbook and forgotten all about magic long ago), can you do a wizard who is completely illiterate and actually very unsmart if not criminally retarded?, can you do a reckless enchanter who truly doesn't understand the difference between magic and not magic (and is still illiterate)?. On the other hand you just give the sage background to a sorcerer and bump a wizard.

Wizard= guy who studied magic, Sorcerer= random kid who happens to have magic. I don't really see how the former is more generic than the later. (More to it, in 4e the only way to do lasting magic was through rituals, which fit perfectly under wizard, but not for sorcerers. you cannot give a spellbook to a sorcerer and require her to also spend money in order to do magic, that is no longer a sorcerer)

 

[Sadrik]

I did not realize what a hot button topic this was. There are some seriously entrenched sides or steeldragons has set upon a very flammable straw man.

For me, what I was hoping this thread would uncover is that a sorcerer with a smaller potential list of spells they can learn is not serving everyone best. Someone else said it well, with 60 flavors out of 120 to cook a goblin you are not really seeing the versatility there.

An innate caster is limited by not knowing many spells but in my opinion can learn any spell. I can also see any spell within a theme too. A psion is a type of innate caster. The sorcerer is a type of innate caster.

These are different than a cleric or warlock who are granted their powers each day from some external power source.

These are different than a bard or wizard who unlock magical mysteries of the universe through specialized training and knowledge.

For innate casters what is your theme for them?

 

[steeldragons]

I did not realize what a hot button topic this was. There are some seriously entrenched sides or steeldragons has set upon a very flammable straw man.

I'm never really clear what a strawman is...but that they are bad/undesireable...and the phrase "set upon" is not the clearest...are you saying I'm making one or easily annihilating ("very flammable") one?

For me, what I was hoping this thread would uncover is that a sorcerer with a smaller potential list of spells they can learn is not serving everyone best. Someone else said it well, with 60 flavors out of 120 to cook a goblin you are not really seeing the versatility there.

What was said, I believe was that most of the spell list is "sixty flavors for frying a kobold." Not 60 out of the 130 spells, which would be less than 50% btw. And, as I thought I concisely demostrated is patently false. A simple perusal of the sorcerer's spell list shows that, clearly.

An innate caster is limited by not knowing many spells but in my opinion can learn any spell. I can also see any spell within a theme too. A psion is a type of innate caster. The sorcerer is a type of innate caster.

So it is. As I said above. So, you're "dealing with it" by changing your table to suit your preference...iow, letting sorcerer pc's pick any spell. That's great.

For innate casters what is your theme for them?

Mine? None.

If I were to have one in a game I was running (which I suppose would mean I have to allow the sorcerer class into a game I run) being an "innate caster" is their theme as far as I'm concerned.

If a player wants to gear their spell selection toward one area or another: "I'm a pyromancer! Fire magic pew pew!" "I'm a fey-blooded enchantress! Charms and illusion waft from my eyes and lips like perfume" "I scare people into thinking I'm a Shadow-caster so they'll keep their distance! All of my spells are geared around darkness...and breaking/entering so I can use them in my jewel heists." That's great! Pick something you think will be fun and run with it. There's the spell list, p. 209.

That's all on the player.

The corner case concepts above are not actual characters I have ever encountered and they certainly don't warrant altering the class mechanics or spell selection to accommodate.

 

[steeldragons]

Is it balanced that a wizard can simply decide to make the sorcerer in the party irrelevant by doing exactly the same things and still have room to do things the sorcerer cannot do?

This is simply disingenuous.

This gets brought up repeatedly...how often does this really happen? Really? You play with a wizard guy who takes all the spells you are going to take?

Every group I've ever seen/played in/heard of coordinates their spell choices. In the case of a party with a sorcerer and a wizard, I'm sure this would entail a lot of the wizard choosing "around" what the sorcerer knows. But of COURSE the wizard is going to have some offense and defense spells, for themselves. That's not "making the sorcerer irrelevant" that's just common sense.

If you are in a group where this does happen all of the time, so much so that your entire class feels "irrelevant", I think the key issue is to stop playing with d***s, not "the sorcerer class needs to be molded to do what I want."

 

[Psikerlord#]

I find this issue is easily avoided. If theres a wizard or sorceror in the party already, choose something else to play, weeeeeeeee!

 

[Psikerlord#]

soz double

 

[Minigiant]

I believe the key to the sorcerer is not spell selection but spell favoritism. Via spell points and metamagic, a sorcerer can do more with what he's got.

This is especially true since a wizard is forced to focus. If the wizard chooses illusion, the sorcerer can run conjuration better with extending one spell and evocation better by metamagicking another.

Essentially the sorcerer is a better double/triple school arcanist. If you want illusions and burning stuff well....

 

[Sadrik]

If a player wants to gear their spell selection toward one area or another: "I'm a pyromancer! Fire magic pew pew!" "I'm a fey-blooded enchantress! Charms and illusion waft from my eyes and lips like perfume" "I scare people into thinking I'm a Shadow-caster so they'll keep their distance! All of my spells are geared around darkness...and breaking/entering so I can use them in my jewel heists." That's great! Pick something you think will be fun and run with it. There's the spell list, p. 209.

That's all on the player.

The corner case concepts above are not actual characters I have ever encountered and they certainly don't warrant altering the class mechanics or spell selection to accommodate.

I guess it boils down to your view on house rules. Are you a RAW warrior? If so, the answer is... there's the spell list p. 209... in your game. If your sorcerer player had an idea outside the box on the list, there's the spell list p. 209. And why? Because... I have ever encountered and they certainly don't warrant altering the class mechanics or spell selection to accommodate.

It is not wrong to think that way. It is just different than I do. I do not say here is the tool box build within the constraints only. I would say here is the tool box and look I added on this little side pouch and the tools in there are very cool too. Build your vision, that is cool.

I do think the sorcerer compares very well to the wizard mechanically. The sorcerer is a limited version of the wizard with a few add on things. Thematically the sorcerer is unique and does have a lot of rich theme. Mechanically it is just as good as a blaster wizard and avoids all of the other stuff a wizard could do. For me, this reinforces the idea, why not allow sorcerers to learn any spell. At least, in one of their few spells they cast, it will really be a signature spell for the character. You want your sorcerer to cast entangle or cure wounds - go for it. Adds another healer to the party, never a bad thing in my experience.

When I play D&D, I almost exclusively play wizards. This edition has tempted me to break the mold. We are still in our Age of Worms 3e game but when we play 5e and if I do not DM I will certainly play a wizard again. Tempted... but not duped. Sorcerer is second class again in this edition by RAW.