D&D 5E Sorcerer spell selection

[Sadrik]

Why do the sorcerer's have such a limited spell selection? Were they very limited in 4e? Limited to blasting stuff and that is it? This reminds me of the battlemage in 3e's complete arcane.

In my mind, a sorcerer is master of magic and should be able to master any type of magic, because magic flows through them, as it flows through the universe type of thing... The sorcerer is limited to one specialty: blasting elements, but I can imagine a whole host of others they could do. Even with a specialty, I still find that constraining. They know very few spells. Why not remove their spell list and give them access to learning any spell. They would then know a small hodge podge of disparate effects.

Let the player tie it to a theme. If they wanted a celestial themed sorcerer selecting some cleric spells might make excellent sense. If they were a fey sorcerer selecting some druid spells might be thematically viable.

Bottom line the current sorcerer list is too constrained. Would you allow them to pick any spell from any spell list?

 

[Celtavian]

I think the sorcerer's niche is magical blaster. Given there is no difference between prepared versus spontaneous caster any longer, that niche is no longer necessary. You make a sorcerer when you want to make a character that blasts away at enemies with a few defensive spells.

 

[Astrosicebear]

A Sorcerer is not intended to be a master of magic, but rather an innate spellcaster. The power flows through them, sometimes uncontrollably. As such this power grants them a limited repertoire of powers, usually primal, elemental destructive forces. Its a limiter on the class for both function and flavor. Since they get more spells cast per day, they cannot be as versatile as wizards.

Also as someone posted recently in another thread on this topic, Sorcs actually get the 3rd largest spell list after wizards and clerics.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I believe there is still a difference between prepared vs spontaneous casters. The spellcasting feature of the sorcerer (as well as bard, warlock, ranger) does not reference needing to prepare spells as the wizard's does. A sorcerer can still cast any spell they know at any time, while wizards still need to prepare a list of spells. The difference is in this edition preparing spells got a slight buff now that casting a spell no longer deletes it from your prepared list, while spontaneous casting stayed the same.

As for why the sorcerer feels so limited, in my opinion it is so that it does not step on the wizard's toes. The wizard has always been the poster boy for being able to do anything with magic and if the sorcerer did the same it would be redundant.

 

[steeldragons]

This may be better suited to the other Sorcerer thread. But I really don't feel like typing it all out again. So I'll put it here and see how it goes...If it makes more sense for the other sorcerer thread, feel free to move it.

Note any "you"s or "your"s are the general "you/your" and not directed specifically at the OP or any single poster/replies.
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I am forced to ask the question...How many spells should the Sorcerer have?

Same as the wizard, I suspect, will be the answer I get.

So, the scheme of casters/magic users of D&D the sorcerer-advocates would be "happy" with are: Wizard/Sorcerer #1, i.e., the same except for casting mechanic, followed by cleric, followed by druid...then whomever else?

I don't know. I'm asking. What would make the [apparent vocal minorty] of sorcerer-advocates happy as the "right" number of spells?

To my (and I can certainly hope the designers') mind, Sorcerer's aren't that integral/important/archetypal 'niche" in any way that any other mage/wizard/witch/arcane MU can't be. Nor do they have the legacy/tradition to warrant making them the class who is the "best" at magic [or equivalent].

But...but...spell versatility....So play a wizard if you want the spell list, add "I have magic in me bones" or "I'm a natural with magic/arcane prodigy" or "prophesied spell-weaver" or "you have to be born a witch/wizard" or whatever other special snowflake you need to your fluff. Sure, you carry around a spellbook. It's on your character sheet. Nobody says you have to roleplay using it.

Not to mention, giving the 130 long spell list for Sorcerers a once over, there is no shortage of versatility. Be a blaster. Be an enchanter/fey-blood. Be a thiefy sneaks-alot. Be a diviner. Be an all over the place utility-caster. Can you do as much/as many as the wizard equivalents/specialists? No. You can't. If you want to be "that good", then yes, you need to put some effort into learning some magic. Again, in the hand of the player's choices, as it should be.

But...but...weapons...So, play a bard, warlock, eldritch knight fighter...or take a feat to get proficiency. That is what you want? That's the character concept you have? That's great! Make your choices, as the player, to make happen.

But...but...I don'wanna play another class, a.k.a. I want my melee cake and eat versatility too. I wanna play a Sorrrcerrrerrrr... Then, I can't help you. Because there are ways to get what you claim you want, the game isn't giving you exactly your idea in a neat little package, and you're just being difficult, i.e. whiny entitlement.

It all boils down to: Sorcerers were nothing more than Wizards with [weak] fluff given an alternate spell mechanic.

They were [one of the things done for] WotC's attempt to put their stamp on the game with 3e, by offering a "video-game-esque" spam-caster type that would appeal to (and hopefully draw in some of) that audience. That is all they were/are.

NOW, in 5e, they have been further "specialized." I think that's great!...since there is no chance of them being deleted entirely...at least, now, they sound like they are a little bit different.

Their "limited" spells they know are now an actual limitation that has [at least some] meaning...and that is offering the conceit that the third largest spell list in the game is a "limitation"...you, literally, can not learn anything a wizard can. You are the second-class arcane spell-caster. That's what you get for your "freedom from study" fluff. That's what you are. If that's your [rightful] choice of class...deal with it, e.g. accept it, change it to suit your needs at your table, do nothing but fume, etc...

[EDIT] To the specific question of the OP, in case it isn't obvious...No, I would not permit a sorcerer pc to just pick any spells they want.[/EDIT]
/a bit more ranty than I thought it would sound, but with my sincere legitimate viewpoints

 

[MoutonRustique]

There is a disconnect between : innate spellcaster of unpredictable magical power with ...ok, but you can only blow stuff up.... Personally, I don't like it.

I imagine the reason for this is a mixture of not wanting sorcerors to step on the wizards' toes, a tradition of having sorcerors being "the blaster canons" that makes it easier to be accepted and game balance considerations.

All this being said, I'm not certain you'd BREAK THE GAME OMG! by allowing your player's sorcerer to pick something from the wizard list... (or any list for that matter)

The existence and (not gamebreakingly) OP'ness of the Bard gives (in my eyes) a pretty strong argument that the spell lists for the "fragile" casters could be expanded to pretty much everything, and you'd not destroy the play experience.

Where there would be greater concern is in niche protection - which is often a moot point at a given table : if the other class is not present to be stepped on, there's not much point to making sure to not step on it...

 

[TheCelric]

Insofar as I I agree that some of the caster classes should have more or different spells (in my case, I'd argue that the Bard needs more/all of the sound effects added to his list, but whatever), I agree with Steel Dragon more. The Sorcerer is a caster with a bunch of other flavorful cool abilities - use those and see how it goes instead of trying to change the game and "fix" problems so early into this young edition.

That being said, you can approach the issue a couple of different ways, but here's the two that I like and have done before as DM, if you find that your character concept cannot survive without the added list:
1) Give the player an alternate reward. Your group saved a druid circle from a dragon? Cool, you are rewarded with a few weeks worth of wilderness training (proficiency to survival in that region maybe) for those that wish, and maybe learn to channel your nature to encompass a spell like call lightning for your Sorcerer.
2) Multiclass - no explanation needed

Really though, if your world has NO druids - then why not make the niche your sorcerer covers subsume some of their spells in place of your spells? The party only comes upon the problem if the DM is trying to create a symbiotic world. Some things do this, some do that. If you can call lightning and come upon a druid that can do the SAME THING - how is that special to you, the player - ie, the most important person in the campaign?

 

[TerraDave]

We discuss this in the other thread

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?373772-Please-someone-explain-to-me

But as I note there, Sorcerer is only limited compared to the wizard. They have as any many or more spells then the other "full casters" (who gets little is the Warlock, around half what the sorcerer gets). I think the idea is that Wizards get a lot. But thats arguably another topic.

 

[MoonSong]

A Sorcerer is not intended to be a master of magic, but rather an innate spellcaster. The power flows through them, sometimes uncontrollably. As such this power grants them a limited repertoire of powers, usually primal, elemental destructive forces. Its a limiter on the class for both function and flavor. Since they get more spells cast per day, they cannot be as versatile as wizards.

Also as someone posted recently in another thread on this topic, Sorcs actually get the 3rd largest spell list after wizards and clerics.

Bold part is just not true, wizards get more castings than sorcerers, sorcerers at best can reach the same number of castings at certain levels. First level wizard, has two slots -same as the sorcerer- and can regain one -something the sorcerer cannot do until 2nd level- not to mention ritual casting. The number of castings is even further reduced at alter levels, as sorcerer points are used to power metamagic and thus cannot be used to cast more spells. And at later levels wizards get at-will magic of 1st to 3rd level.

Also quantity is not the same as quality, Sorcerers get a "huge" list, but most of these spells are only sixty different ways to fry a kobold. And a wizard can have prepared more spells than you'll ever know, how is that balanced?

 

[Piratecat]

Bold part is a lie,

There's a huge difference between "I disagree with you" or "I think you're mistaken," and "you are lying to me." Words are important. Please think twice when choosing your phrasing in the future; accusing someone of lying (when that isn't their intent) is a great way to start an argument and derail a thread!

Thanks.