D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

[Hawk Diesel]

I've already acknowledged and thanked individuals for providing counterexamples to my argument who cited specific examples of spells in which ability checks are used. Specifically, Web was mentioned and to me seems a good parallel to the mechanics that were suggested for the adjusted Witchbolt utilizing the a grapple vs Constitution ability check. When homebrew spells are created, I tend to look to see if other spells exist with similar properties/mechanics to get a sense of whether the spell is appropriate in power level and maintains the trends/limits established with spellcasting in general. Not to say spells (new or old) might have exceptions to such rules or trends, but I tend to be conservative in allowing such spells into the games I run in case it would create balance issues. I don't claim to be an expert in anything except my own experiences and the table that I personally run.

 

[Omone]

First, thank to all of you for examining so deeply this topic. I've read all the posts and would like to contribute with my personal experience as a Wild Magic Sorcerer, now at his 4th level.

Witch Bolt, that I've been using for all my third level, I know is really bad with poor damage and Concentration and so on... I choose it as a last option spell because I'm fast in exhausting all my spell slots and sorcery points. I had it working well only when Twinned with metamagic, but even in that case, it would have been better to use scorching ray all the time.
Do you know how I imagined it to work great? Against a Mirror Imaged enemy spellcaster, because in case it hits, it would always reveal the real images among the duplicates. What do you think?

And now, Spells that work well in pair, even here I would like your opinion:
Alter Self + Shocking Grasp/Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade. I choose the first mainly because it's the perfect spell to impersonate another creature, and because I love multi-purposes spell (sorcerers has so few known spells). But think about growing natural weapons, that are +1 magic among the other things, and throw yourself in combat delivering melee cantrips. Isn't that bad, is it? I use to choose to transform the tiefling tail in a whip, a martial weapon with reach, to stay not too close to the opponent.

Web + Ice Knife. To inflict damage from behind I choose this combo: the first one restrains the target and the other one leverages the disadvantages on dex saves and the advantage to hit. Can't wait to be able to cast third level spells to find a better combination

 

[Gadget]

Witch Bolt, that I've been using for all my third level, I know is really bad with poor damage and Concentration and so on... I choose it as a last option spell because I'm fast in exhausting all my spell slots and sorcery points. I had it working well only when Twinned with metamagic, but even in that case, it would have been better to use scorching ray all the time.
Do you know how I imagined it to work great? Against a Mirror Imaged enemy spellcaster, because in case it hits, it would always reveal the real images among the duplicates. What do you think?

I think Witch Bolt is still a bad spell. If it works for you great! But the cost of the spell is not merely the low damage and concentration, but the action cost as well. It commits you to using your next x rounds worth of actions to do nothing but do a relatively small amount of damage to the same target (if you hit). If not, you have kind of 'wasted' the spell slot. With 5e's penchant for short and fast combats, it is rare that you would be able to keep this spell up long enough to have delivered significant damage to the target. Usually the fight is over, or the target has died, or you have to end the spell early to do something more important that you did not expect, or the target moves out of range/behind cover. Table play preferences and campaign style issues will vary of course.

As for defeating Mirror Image, the way I read it is that the initial Ranged spell attack will suffer the same possibility of hitting (and destroying) a duplicate as any other attack; that is to say very likely if the target has all three duplicates in tact. Assuming one hits a duplicate with the spell, congratulations, you have eliminated one duplicate and expended a spell slot. Since the duplicate that you hit is destroyed, the spell ends, imo. Only if the initial spell attack somehow hits the real target will the spell continue, but the duplicates will as well.

Alter Self + Shocking Grasp/Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade. I choose the first mainly because it's the perfect spell to impersonate another creature, and because I love multi-purposes spell (sorcerers has so few known spells). But think about growing natural weapons, that are +1 magic among the other things, and throw yourself in combat delivering melee cantrips. Isn't that bad, is it? I use to choose to transform the tiefling tail in a whip, a martial weapon with reach, to stay not too close to the opponent.

I suppose if your DM rules that the natural weapon created by Alter Self counts as the 'weapon' component required by those cantrips, but Alter Self says it counts as an Unarmed Strike which you are proficient in that does 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, so I rather doubt that this is RAW.

Web + Ice Knife. To inflict damage from behind I choose this combo: the first one restrains the target and the other one leverages the disadvantages on dex saves and the advantage to hit. Can't wait to be able to cast third level spells to find a better combination

Sounds reasonable.

 

[Omone]

Totally agree with you: witch bolt sucks.

I suppose if your DM rules that the natural weapon created by Alter Self counts as the 'weapon' component required by those cantrips, but Alter Self says it counts as an Unarmed Strike which you are proficient in that does 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, so I rather doubt that this is RAW

Yes indeed, my DM is also allowing a melee spell touch attack (as for shocking grasp) using a natural weapon. How lucky I am ;-)

For the last combo, it came to my mind also chromatic orb (instead of ice knife).
When an enemy is trapped in the web, you can choose a fire element to stop him from suffering... forever!

 

[Omone]

Totally agree with you: witch bolt sucks.

I suppose if your DM rules that the natural weapon created by Alter Self counts as the 'weapon' component required by those cantrips, but Alter Self says it counts as an Unarmed Strike which you are proficient in that does 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, so I rather doubt that this is RAW

Yes indeed, my DM is also allowing a melee spell touch attack (as for shocking grasp) using a natural weapon. How lucky I am ;-)
Moreover I'm curious about where this topic about whips will lead:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?411345-5E-Whips
For the last combo, it came to my mind also chromatic orb (instead of ice knife).
When an enemy is trapped in the web, you can choose a fire element to stop him from suffering... forever!

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Thread Resurrection!

So I've been thinking about some of the problematic spells described in this thread. I have some ideas.

Jump - This is less a problem with the spell, and more a problem with your movement speed being a limiting factor if your jump distance is greater than your movement speed. I think the better way to approach this is to just allow people to exceed their movement speed as a normal move action when their jump distance is greater. Obviously, certain types of character builds could take advantage of this. I think a potential limiting factor that could be implemented is to call for constitution saves to avoid gaining levels of exhaustion if you make too many jumps too quickly. I think this would need to be a DM call on what that looks like, but it would keep people from abusing the jump distance to get consistent movement higher than their base speed.

Ray of Enfeeblement - I don't believe a spell should require an attack roll AND a saving throw. For this spell, I remove the attack roll aspect. The target is automatically affected to start, and makes their constitution save at the end of each turn. This guarantees one round of dealing half damage. I think this is necessary as most frontline fighters that you would target tend to have good Con, and so this way you consistently get at least one round out of the spell. Not sure any other such spells exist like this, so I'm not sure if this makes it too powerful for a second level spell. But since it doesn't have direct offensive capability so much as defensive capability, I think it is an appropriate power level.

Color Spray - I don't mind this spell too much. There's no save, and it has a mechanic similar to sleep (though not as long lasting). My only recommended change is to change the line that states "the effects last until the spell ends" to "the effects last until the start of your next turn."

This one wasn't previously mentioned, but I thought I'd present it here to get others thoughts.

Power Word Kill
9th-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. It the creature has more than 100 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw. If the creature fails, it is reduced to one quarter of its remaining hit point total (rounded down). If the creature succeeds, it takes 50 points of necrotic damage.

Reasoning: Being able to instantly kill a creature with 100 HP or less is great, don't get me wrong. Especially without a save. But its also kind of a boring spell. And it also makes a player have to guess the opponent's HP, which requires some metagaming. Additionally, A player with over 100 HP has nothing to fear from this spell until he's been worn down a bit. But what if the big bad that they're facing doesn't have minions or anything left to wear the players down for the Coup de Grace? I think this allows a player to use it without having to metagame, and it allows it a measure of respect even from the most dangerous of creatures. This really is Power Word: Kill.

Now, I'm curious with XGtE having been recently released and people having had time to read through those spells, are there any new spells that might be added to this list?

 

[CapnZapp]

Perhaps I haven't offered my analysis of PWK in this particular thread, but spells aren't just for adventurers - they're there for monsters and NPCs too.

Correct, Power Word Kill is not impressive for a hero, since you only get it at 17th level. A hundred hit points simply isn't much there. At 17th level, monsters will routinely be CR 20. Everyone has LOADS of hit points, even the mooks! Instead of spending your only level 9 spell perhaps the party fighter can simply attack the monster and do a hundred damage?

(The spell is slightly better in games without feats since they roughly double the fighters' damage output. Still, not very impressive to spend your round to do the job your fighter could do in two)

But for an enemy BBEG it's a great spell!

As an NPC, you don't have to wait until CR 17 to get the spell. Archmages get it already at CR 12.

And at CR 12, you routinely face heroes still in their single digit levels! Chances are excellent that they don't have 100 hp, especially if you can have your brute bodyguard soften them up first.

And each hit point of hero is much more dangerous than most points of monster. That is, heroes with class levels are some of the most dangerous creatures out there, but that danger doesn’t express itself through a "big bag of hp".

All in all, PWK is a great way to slay a hero spellcaster without fear of failure and gain great bang for the buck.

Therefore it has a place in the spell lists, even if it appears anemic to player characters! [emoji3]

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Immoralkickass]

Now, I'm curious with XGtE having been recently released and people having had time to read through those spells, are there any new spells that might be added to this list?

Elemental Bane: Just bad. Take a look at other 4th level spells, now look back at this spell. Don't you wish this spell was as good as other spells? Take Elemental Adapt feat and never cast this spell again.

Enervation: The big brother of Witch Bolt, complete with all the same weaknesses and limitations.

PW Pain: Requires 100hp or less. And not immune to Charm. And Con save every round. For a mediocre effect that wont last long.

Skill Empowerment: Nobody will use this. Because I don't see anyone using Enhance Ability, and Enhance Ability is actually better. Waste of a 5th level slot. Aw c'mon, must choose a skill that the target is already proficient in? Garbage.

 

[Guest 6801328]

One item on my wishlist for 6e is to have the spell list re-thought and rebalanced. It should be much, much harder than it currently is to choose 'best' spells.

It would help if there were some tier in between normal spells and rituals for those utilities that are too situational to justify a slot, but would trivialize too many challenges if you could just cast a ritual whenever you needed it. Scrolls could work, except that it would get boring for higher level, wealthier wizards to just carry around stacks of Knock, Comprehend Languages, Magic Mouth, and the like.

I also wouldn't mind seeing spells of level 6+ just go away. Upcast the remainder.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION]

Sorry buddy, but I have to disagree. While I know that technically everything in the PHB is also in the DM's tools, I often find that it is less useful as a DM to build encounters using specific statted material or spells. Spells and the material in the PHB is more for the players, since the DM has the choice of throwing out the rules but the players do not. As a DM, if I want a player dead with no save, I don't need Power Word Kill to do it or justify it. The spells as presented in the PHB give players a structure to balance their powers against one another and to give a framework for expectations on the potential results or consequences of casting the spell.

Besides, as a DM, I rarely use enemies or NPCs with set spell lists. I find it much easier, faster, and more thematic/story-driven to describe the spell, assign an effect on the fly (status effect or damage), and give an appropriate spell DC or spell attack bonus.