Star Wars Saga Edition [SECR] Preview #2 is Up

[Donovan Morningfire]

Granted, we don't have all the information, but I kind of like how the concept of skill points has been removed.

Let's face it, in the ultimate source material, the six films, all the characters have a "jack of all trades" approach to doing things. In the RECR, you'd need to spread a lot of skill points over a lot of different things if you wanted to be reasonably good. The situation was even worse of Jedi characters without a high Intelligence bonus, as they had to spread their skill points even further, or focus on either Force skills or non-Force skills.

I think quite a few of you folks are jumping the gun on about how having your skill bonus determined by level and trained rather than skill points is going to ruin everything. I for one am actually glad that calculating a skill check bonus is going to be a lot simpler, especially if you need to whip up a mid to high-level NPC in a hurry. At least under this system, you can be reasonably certain that the final check bonus is accurate.

As was also mentioned, there are different ways to have a character be really good at something. In RECR, a soldier and a noble could have an identical bonus to Diplomacy (picking a random skill out of the hat), but the noble had class features that let them do more with the skill than the soldier. The idea of using talents and feats in SECR to do the same is no different. And Skill Focus is no longer a joke of a feat, which is definitely nice.

 

[Shalimar]

I'm not reading that they're ripping skill ranks out, just arbitrary assignment of skill points. Essentially creating a default setting. But I may be completely misreading the preview.

Personally, getting rid of Repair OR Craft made sense. Who the heck can repair a TV, but doesn't know enough about the working parts to build one? Who can build a house, but then needs separate training in how to repair it? Again, I think people may be freaking out at the idea of options disappearing, when instead it's granularity that's going by the wayside. And not character choice granularity (which is good), but game mechanic granularity.

You are misreading the preview, there are no skill ranks/points or anything else in SAGA. Skills are either Trained or Untrained according to the preveiw(and backed up by statements by the writers over on the WOTC Boards). Its binary now, there are 3 levels of skill (excluding ability score + Half Level): You are Untrained (+0), Trained (+5). You can spend a feat on skill Focus to be +10, but straight skill will be +0 or +5.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

WTF are they thinking? YOU CAN'T remove craft without loosing its write in flexability. Are they saying there are no artisens or artists or hobbiests in the future? I loved the distinction of the Craft/Repair duality.... because it IS realistic (you could a) know how to build things b) know how to fix things c) spend time to learn how to fix and repair things), getting rid of one of those skills doesn't seem right..

Actually, rolling them into one skill makes a lot of sense. That was the approach Green Ronin took in their 2nd edition of Mutants&Masterminds, rolling Repair into Craft (electrical), Craft (mechanical), and Craft (structural), with the character using the most relevant Craft skill to fix the item in question.

I know that in the WEG system, if you wanted to build something, you pretty much had to rely on the corresponding Repair skill (or if using the Advanced Skills rule, purchase that at an inflated price).

I am curious how the artistic-based Craft sub-skills are going to be addressed? Maybe they've been rolled into a Performance skill, along with Entertain?

 

[Rhun]

I'll reserve final judgment until the system is actually released, but I think I like what I read here. It definitely looks like it will be a solid, easy to use system.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I like most of what I see here but I still have some questions/reservations of the system.

A big concern I have with this setup is the 'what uses are Trained Only' question. While having entire skills be Trained Only didn't always make sense, it was easy to mark on the character sheet.

I'm just afraid that this setup will require charts that say "X is a Trained Only use while Y is not" for every skill in the game.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Skills are either Trained or Untrained according to the preveiw(and backed up by statements by the writers over on the WOTC Boards). Its binary now, there are 3 levels of skill (excluding ability score + Half Level): You are Untrained (+0), Trained (+5). You can spend a feat on skill Focus to be +10, but straight skill will be +0 or +5.

Maybe's it just the part of me that would rather spend more time playing the game than building NPCs for a session, but I don't see a problem with that approach. Like I said in an earlier post, the new system allows for the "jack-of-all-trades" feel that many of the main characters can do. Like the preview discussed, look at Han from the Classic Trilogy and Obi-Wan from the Prequels. Both of these guys were pulling off stuff that they'd need buckets of skill points to accomplish (barring loaded dice that typically rolled 15 or better).

We do still have a base skill rank (what you have prior to ability score modifier and Skill Focus), it's just calculated without skill points. And to be honest, from my experiences the one thing that really slowed down leveling up a character was deciding what skill points went where, especially at higher levels, when the character's key skills already had an overwhelming bonus.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

I'm just afraid that this setup will require charts that say "X is a Trained Only use while Y is not" for every skill in the game.

It wouldn't be too hard to cook up a separate handout that has the breakdown if necessary. All it really needs to list is the macro skill (Athletics, Persuasion, Perception, Use the Force, etc), and then break out the various aspects with a second column titled Trained Only? with either a Yes or No next to it.

Size of the handout would depend on skill breakout. But after a while, it will probably become second nature to most gamers to mentally tally what they can and can't do untrained.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

But after a while, it will probably become second nature to most gamers to mentally tally what they can and can't do untrained.

I still hear a lot on these boards about players having problems with what causes an Attack of Opprotunity. This chart would be the same basic setup but be a lot larger.

 

[ValhallaGH]

[qoute]Along the way, we removed some skills that were rarely used in most games. For example, we removed Craft, because traditionally the Repair skill was used to build droids, starships, and so on.[/qoute]


WTF are they thinking? YOU CAN'T remove craft without loosing its write in flexability. Are they saying there are no artisens or artists or hobbiests in the future? I loved the distinction of the Craft/Repair duality.... because it IS realistic (you could a) know how to build things b) know how to fix things c) spend time to learn how to fix and repair things), getting rid of one of those skills doesn't seem right.

First, by using a single skill for all creations, they have made it simpler to be "the guy that makes things". You have the "making things" skill, thus you can make stuff. A (GM determined) situational modifier to the DC of +/- 2, 4, 6 or more is appropriate for things you never make / make a lot. Artists can now sculpt stone, plastic, metal and starship hulls with equal ease, and the techie can now indulge his desire to paint with skill.

Second, the huge times involved in craft checks have almost always made it an "off screen" skill. The SAGA Edition seems to be all about the screen time; if it happens off screen then it happens by plot device. Plot devices don't need rules, they work the way the story demands of them.

Third, most people that can repair a thing can build the same thing, and anyone that can build a thing can repair it.

Finally, there's nothing I, nor anyone else, can do for your feelings. Good luck dealing with those.


I'm mildly interested by the changes to skills, though I'm far more interested in what they've done to the classes, what talents they've created and how they're going to handle some of the oddities of Star Wars. That said, I think Owen and Rodney took one of the right paths for representing SW in the d20 system.

 

[jonrog1]

You are misreading the preview, there are no skill ranks/points or anything else in SAGA. Skills are either Trained or Untrained according to the preveiw(and backed up by statements by the writers over on the WOTC Boards). Its binary now, there are 3 levels of skill (excluding ability score + Half Level): You are Untrained (+0), Trained (+5). You can spend a feat on skill Focus to be +10, but straight skill will be +0 or +5.

Sorry, i was using "skill ranks" in a different context, as in "skill value added to roll."

Again, not heartbroken about this. It's not like I ever, in twenty odd years of gaming, said "Thanks God for my two odd ranks in swim."

And not to just praise Green Ronin without knocking them, i find a lot of the hero builds in Mutants and Masterminds suffer from skill point glut. A lot of abilites at +2 ranks or +3 just because they needed somewhere to stick all those points. For a pulpy, fast-based game, that's a little grit in the gears. it could be stripped out nicely, and this system would be a nice one to use for that.

As to what uses are trained only, I'm guessing that if your character is built around using that skill, you're gonna know that pretty darn fast. It's like combat challenges, and some uses in True20 skills.

Oddly, i think this version of SW will loan itself even more as the generic basis for other pulp space opera campaigns.