Star Wars What I Would Have Done

pukunui

Legend
Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best.
I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely.

Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And in RotJ, Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.

The “light side” is an EU concept, and sadly it seems Disney has bought into it. In TFA, Leia says she can sense there’s still “light” in her son. And Luke espouses the whole balance between light and dark in TLJ as well.

I prefer “good” over “light”.

Also, the chosen one was to balance the force, not be the strongest.
A prophecy that misread could have been.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely.

Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.

The “light side” is an EU concept, and sadly it seems Disney has bought into it. Leia says she can sense there’s still “light” in her son.

I prefer “good” over “light”.

A prophecy that misread could have been.

The force seems to balance itself. That and you can't wipe the dark side out. Might regret that statement in December.

I probably would have preferred a new story in the Star Wars Galaxy but a sequel to rotj plus the 3 legacy characters makes sense financially.

Alot of the good legends material got away from the force or put it into the distant past or in the late EU 140 years after Jedi.

If they make Rey the chosen one the fans will riot lol. It would explain Rey in the worst way. Lucas was always clear the saga was about Anakin.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best. The Sith or whatever will always be recreated through Jedi that fall.

Legends was hinting at that at the end of Fate of the Jedi which overall was a bit meh but the young Sith girl I liked and how they portrayed her temptation to the light with Ben.

Not much is original in the new ones;) The dark side temptation to the light is interesting.
There are no Sith in Ep 7&8.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.

But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).
 



Zardnaar

Legend
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.

But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).


EU Luke had some terrible plot devices, kid Anakin was worse than Rey. At least Daisy can express emotions on her face and she seems to be a decent actor. Lucas drew on the old EU its where name Coruscant and Palpatine came from, along with Maul's double bladed lightsaber. Message boards and social media mostly didn't exist 20 years ago when TPM landed, and TFA>TPM any day of the week.
In the new canon they lifted Thrawn and TIE defenders from the old EU so they're plugging stuff back in.

I just thought they could have learnt some things from the opld EU and improved on it. The basic plot of TFA for example is recycled from 25 odd years ago (Imperial faction check, darksider check, superweapon check). They also had some very interesting female Jedi and other characters. For example if they're not going to make Rey part of a famous family like the skywalkers or Kenobi etc they should have giving her a better back ground rather than "you're a nobody" which may or may not get retconned.

Compare Rey with Jynn Erso from Rogue One. They only had one movie there to do anything with but yeah I cared about her as she had a background I liked they did a great job there. You kind of wanted her to get a happy ending reuniting with her dad, but that was not to be. Because I liked her character her death at the end of the movie meant something.
 

Zardnaar

Legend

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?

I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it. Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.
 

What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.
Luke didn't really have to become more powerful. But I can't see how a Luke that turned Darth Vader back from the Dark Side of the force, a Luke that risked life and limb (literally) to try to save his friends on Bspin or from Jabba the Hut, would turn his back on his best friends, his family in a time of need. It just doesn't feel like the Luke from the movies.


But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).

I notice that you don't respond to one observation by me: It doesn't really matter that you can explain the winning, regardless of whether you can bring good arguments or not. The thing is - there is no sense of struggle. And it might actually be justified in TFA, since Luke isn't struggling all that much in ANH either, except emotional (death of his uncle and aunt, death of Obi-Wan, which mirrors Rey's struggle to leave her homeworld behind, and also Finn's struggle to not just run away from the First Order, but run towards the Resistance and Rey). But he is in definitely struggling in ESB, on Hoth in the cold, on Dagobah in his training, and finally when confronting Vader. He gets to come out alive, but he had to work for it.
But Rey doesn't seem to struggle - she learns Jedi stuff, she helps Kylo beat the First Order's lead man, and gets everyone to safety. (Where as Luke's presence on Bespin wasn't actually important even, he mostly got himself in trouble). The only thing she is hit with is basically the claim that her parents are nobodies - which most people's parents probably are, and most people still would want to know why their parents would leave them. Even a nobody's answer is interesting here for the child left behind.
 

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