Star Wars What I Would Have Done

Zardnaar

Legend
That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?

I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it. Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.

Never claimed the EU was great. I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down.

The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.

It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development
 

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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Never claimed the EU was great.

Never claimed that you did.

I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down.

Agreed. Maybe it is the kinda thing that you need to read the books to get the real backstory for, like how the Cylon woman is supposed to have a great back story.

The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.

It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development

The space chase did seem to be kinda strange. Oops forgot to fill up on Space Petrol, doh.
 

Hussar

Legend
A question.

What's with all the Phasma love? Ok, shiny armor storm trooper. Cool. Neat. Who cares? How can this character be "wasted"? Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.

Pretty much the same as Boba Fett.

I suppose I might just be answering my own question. :D

And one other thing. People are actually bitching about the scene in TFA when Rey pilots the Falcon through the wreck of a Star Destroyer? SERIOUSLY? That's a freaking GORGEOUS scene. One of the most memorable scenes in any Star Wars movies.

You'd want to eject that scene because it makes the female lead look too good?

Just like D&D, I'm really, REALLY glad Star Wars is not in the hands of fans.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
A question.

What's with all the Phasma love? Ok, shiny armor storm trooper. Cool. Neat. Who cares? How can this character be "wasted"? Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.

Pretty much the same as Boba Fett.

I suppose I might just be answering my own question. :D

And one other thing. People are actually bitching about the scene in TFA when Rey pilots the Falcon through the wreck of a Star Destroyer? SERIOUSLY? That's a freaking GORGEOUS scene. One of the most memorable scenes in any Star Wars movies.

You'd want to eject that scene because it makes the female lead look too good?

Just like D&D, I'm really, REALLY glad Star Wars is not in the hands of fans.

Lots of things look good Rey and Kylos lightsaber duel. It's not because she us a good pilot but she's good at everything with very little to no explanation in a universe where it's been established in canon that you have to train for force powers. Luke got pwned by Tuskans raiders. He wasn't good at melee, wasn't good with the force, and got his butt handed to him alot.

I did say Kylo and Rey both had great introductions though.
Throw in the plot holes poor character development, characters like Finn regressing, Luke's basic person ality doing a 180 and the interesting seeds TFA planted and thrown away. TFA was enjoyable if a bit reptitive but one can see way they did it.

As for Phasma the actor helps and you answered your own question. If you wanted a positive example of a great female character she had potential. I like Hux as a villain to but they wrote them like chumps. Basically you don't end up caring about any of the villains or the protagonists. Even Fett had his moment of glory.
 
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MGibster

Legend
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.
 

cmad1977

Hero
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.

All of this makes sense and all but you have to remember the one real issue in all of this.

She’s a girl. A GIRL!!
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

I loved Jones in James Bond!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.

Social media didn't exist back then and certain segments online are cancer.

Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes). They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to.

Consider things like Wonder Women, Black Panther, or the Orville. People seem to like those shows, they're diverse and they have power and interesting characters. For new stuff it can go either way.

Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo). Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect. Sure characters can change but you probably need to see that on screen and have it happen naturally so to speak. Jaimie Lannister for example.

That is really the problem, taking older franchises that people like and then drastically changing them or perceived to be pushing a social agenda. If that is fair or not IDK but that is the way things are. Generally you go watch a movie for fun unless its something serious like Schindlers List. Even then social issues can still be enjoyable and make you think (see The Orville its great) but however you do it it still needs to be fun and clever.

Game of Thrones is also doing it right (GRR Martin is a feminist), it has a lot of great female characters heroes and villains, one of them is probably the most popular (Arya). Moana is another good example that movie was stupidly popular here in general and the Polynesians loved it. Orange the New Black also comes to mind. These shows/movies have great writing. A slight counter example might be Sense 8 which had a great season 1 but they messed up season 2 a bit IMHO.

Not all characters need a background or explanation. If someone is a Jedi, Sith, marine, soldier etc it kind of assumed they're a badass. Having them grow into it though is also an old trope (Sarah Connor T1 vs T2, Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier). Sometimes movie makers mess up and the character you think would work out another one is more popular. Harley Quinn is sticking around (Robbie Margot), Jared Leto's joker is going bye bye. I don't think they deliberately aimed for that to happen and that is in a genre with a "toxic fanbase" but the female character is more popular probably because the male one was crap and Robbie was great.

Sure the 100% hard core extremists the ones harassing Rose's actor online you can't really save them. I suspect a few of them are young (under 30 or 20), and social media lets any idiot with an opinion express it, people might even vote for him. There is also other things going on like the cost of movies getting to the point a new movie is a massive risk financially and there is not a lot of 80's franchises with female leads. I would have had a female lad myself I would have fleshed out her back ground or just made her a Jedi or other force using tradition. Then if the force awakens she can still be the receptacle but she would already be a bad ass or she gets unleashed after training a bit with Luke. Even a simple passage of time thing could be used in a different TLJ there is a lot of things that could have been done.
 
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Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier
On screen, she was never a spoiled princess. She was a confident Rebel and also a Princess from the moment we see her - it's probably what Han and Luke (definitely Han) think she is, but her actions pretty much show her as resourceful. However, she still has some things to struggle with - like losing her entire homeworld in front of her eyes to a power demonstration, despite her trying her best possible in the situation to trick Tarkin into thinking he got what he wanted and spare her world.
 

MGibster

Legend
Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes).

I've been a huge fan of Star Wars for almost my entire life and I cannot think of any single way Rey's character runs against the established grain of the universe as established by the movies.

They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to.

I don't really keep up with behind-the-scenes antics of any of the media I consume. For the most part I just care about the final product.

Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo).

Ren doesn't seem particularly incompetent to me. By the end of the second movie he's maneuvered himself into the supreme leader's position.

Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect.

Rey is a new character not an old character written in a different way. Nor is she a character that doesn't fit into the Star Wars milieu. Nothing about Rey is what I wouldn't expect in a Star Wars movie. If she wasn't a woman I don't think anyone would even be having this conversation. For example, nobody seems upset that Fin knew how to fight with a lightsaber.
 

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