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Star Wars What I Would Have Done

Zardnaar

Legend
LOL.

Says someone who obviously has never seen the inside of a Sherman tank. Hint, tiller bars and caterpillar treads are not the same as a truck. Not even close. And, never minding that a flying vehicle is considerably more difficult to operate. But, without any training, apparently the farm hand can hop into the equivalent of an F15 and operate it without any problems. In fact, he's a better pilot than the horde of TIE fighter pilots who had years of training, as well as the couple dozen or so Rebel pilots that get shot down.

AFAIK, a T-16 isn't even shown in any of the movies. Does it have shields? How many engines does it have? How many weapons? It has ion cannons? Torpedo launchers? That's quite the truck you're driving there.

Oh, an with, what, a couple of weeks of training, Luke holds his own, and then later, defeats Vader in a saber duel. That's some pretty intense training there. :uhoh:

Good grief, whinging that Rey is a Mary Sue character in Star Wars is kinda pointless no? EVERY Star Wars character is the best of the best.

Probably more comparable to a cropduster feing able to fly a military biplane. I think T 16s have a small gun he used to shoot womp rats.

They established in the movievhevwas a pilot. He said he could fly the falcon. They established he was a marksman and x wings have R2.

Luke also had to much of his father in him who was one of the greatest pilots in the Galaxy. All of that was ANH.

Take Finn. He gad military training it's not unreasonable he can use a gun or function ad a Gunner. Ww2 had a black cook man an AA gun atvPearl Harbor.

Rey didn't even use a blaster until Han gave her one. Yeah dsure we don't really need an explaination about her using a staff or Kylo using freeze blaster bolt.
Finn swung it like a club he wasn't deflecting blaster bolts.

It wasn't just Rey either the little kid could use telekinesis. What's the point of training or having padawans in all of the previous movies.

Even in legends untrained force users were dangerous more due to the dark side than spontaneous use of force lightning.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
I just explained who's really flying & fighting that X-Wing.



Sure it is. It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.
View attachment 104831
I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...

Forgot about that. Luke's a pilot though. It's like Lucas thought about plot and world building.

T-16s have a laser cannons, a pneumatic gun and Luke used to bullseye womp rats in em. So yes he can fly and use weapons.

In SWSE RPG he had 2 feats, skill focus piloting, force sensitive hit level 3 being trained and spent that feat on skill traing use the force and picked up lightsaber use via mcing into Jedi. At the end of ANH he uses the force blows a force point or maybe a destiny point for an auto crit on the deathstar reactor that casing probably had less than 200 hit points.

Hmmmn Rey could be KoToR style an have altered memories that would make her character make sense if she is similar to Revan.
 
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Hussar

Legend
I just explained who's really flying & fighting that X-Wing.

Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.


Sure it is. It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.
View attachment 104831
I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...

Cool. I never actually knew that. But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.

So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing, but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?

Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.

Legends? What's that? Don't exist. Not canon. Don't care. All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel? Not true. It's a figment of someone's imagination.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
That scene was meant to show that it was an important moment for Rey, not that in the grand scheme of the galaxy. I felt it illustrated that well enough. She will likely never forget that shuttle flying off without her, but perhaps those parents are really not consequential to the greater story at play. And that is alright.

Not everyone has to come from amazing storied parents.
I think it's totally legitimate to say "Rey's parents are not important in the grand scheme of thigns". But the thing is, they were definitely important to Rey. And TLJ's "answer" to what her parents are is not really meaningful or useful to the story. She still want to know who her parents where and why they left her. And I am not convinced a Vader-wannabe's word would satisfy that desire to know.



I think the whole discussion about "training" and "to good out of the gate" really misses what the important thing is: We see Luke or Anakin struggle, lose and fail in the movies. They are good, talented, gifted and mythical heroes, but they must still fight and can fail, and then pick themselves up.

The thing that realy seems to be missing there is the "struggle" part with Rey. There might be perfectly good reasons why she could fight well, fly well, and beat an injured Kylo Ren. But the excitement and the identification with characters become usually more strong when you see them fail first, and then pick themselves up. That's probably also a reason why ESB is now so popular, because it ends with Luke failure to beat Vader and him having to deal knowing his father is the vilain he hated all this time - and we know he'll pick himself up in RotJ. (And he doesn't just fail the fight with Vader, his training is not really going so great at first.)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Sure they can declear legends non canon doesn't make it go away. If it wasn't for the Thrawn Trilogy Disney couldn't buy Star Wars as the old legends popularity put Star Wars back into the cultural awareness. Not that we actually need to resort to legends material that much but they portrayed interesting female characters well. Just don't mention Daala though that was crappy writing for that character. She had a good intro like Rey though.

The OT movies are not perfect (ESB comes close though).
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
It’s the same old sexist BS. Guys can be super-competent action heroes all over the place - from Luke and Anakin to John McClane and Indiana Jones. But if it’s someone with a vagina she’s gotta be a Mary Sue.

Obviously she has to have a vagina to be a Mary Sue.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.

Ahh, one of those SW fans who's too rigid about it for some humor.




Cool. I never actually knew that. But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.

(shrugs) I don't know. Luke claimed it, the rebels basically accepted it. Me? Well, I also don't worry about Flash Gordon manages to fly a ship. They fly their ships because that's the genre.

So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing,

{WARNING: Star Wars humor ahead.}
Oh no. If you watch the movies in the order they're released of course you wouldn't realize that R2 is this capable. For an astro-mech droid he's still pretty crafty & tricky though. And 3P0 comments on this.
But as you watch ESB, RotJ....
And then you watch him in action throughout the prequels & Clone Wars series....
So by the time we get to ANH? Of course he's better in the X-Wing than Luke!

I don't think this is what was intended. Not at all. Clearly it's the story of Luke Skywalker becoming the hero of the galaxy.
It's just one of those humorous things that piles up after 5 additional movies + a cartoon series gets done using a character.
Years after the original you're left pondering just how experienced R2 really is going into the Battle of Yavin.
Hmmm....


but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?

Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.

Don't mix me up with Zard etc. I don't have a problem with the heroes of the story doing their thing. Of course they can do their thing. That's the genre!
I just wish the current batch of movies had been better.
And when Disney wants me to know the backstory of how Rey can fight or fly or whatever so well? Then they'll try & sell me another movie tkt or a comic or a streaming subscription or something.

Legends? What's that? Don't exist. Not canon. Don't care. All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel? Not true. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

That I can agree with.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Other genres don't matter that much to me. Rambo was an ex soldier its all you really need to know, Ripley is a marine, but even in Superhero movies they normally have something to explain the superpowers. Its not that Rey has them its that she has them and is so power "just because".

They can't work out a big backstory due to say the 2 hours or so but in ANH.

1. Lukes father was a great pilot.
2. Luke is a piot
3. He is a good shooter
4. He is force sensitive
5. He struggled a bit with his 1st lesson.
6. He used very few force powers as such and barely used the force at all (vs the drone and DS run).

If Luke was female she still ticks all the boxes.

Switch Rey to male and you still have the same problem. There is still a lack of character development, he would still have all these unexplained powers in a setting where its established how to get them. Hypothetical Ray is still boring because he never got tempted by the darkside, never really got defeated, never lost any limbs and was using these powers even Luke and Anakin had to learn either directly or heavily implied (Anakin spent 10 years with the Jedi Order TPM-AoTC).

Using a different genre. Game of Thrones, does anyone at all like Sansa vs Arya. I'm sure there are some Sansa fans somewhere but who will win a popularity contest there?

Another genre because I'm an 80's kid. Hulk Hogan Mr America superhero vs Stone Cold Steve Austin or the peoples champion Rock. Who is more interesting.

Farscape Crichton or Arryn Synn?

Who do you love to hate more. Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton?

Batman the Dark Knight vs the recent one?

Sure a lot of these characters are grittier but still. Now do you see my point? Do you like the face or the tweener since someone earlier in the thread used face/heel. How about heel/heel then.

Vader or Kylo
Kylo or Thrawn(canon)
Kylo or Thrawn (legends)
Daala (legends) or Rae Sloan (the Disney one is better here BTW)
Phasma or Boba Fett?

Or

Jaina Solo (legends) vs Rey
Mara Jade (legends) vs Rey
Asajj Ventress Vs Rey
Ahsoka Tano vs Rey
 

GreyLord

Hero
It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart. It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.

The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore. They aren't really interested. It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool. What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success. Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise? Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi. Predictions are all over the place. Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater. Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands. Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool. What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success. Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise? Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi. Predictions are all over the place. Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater. Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands. Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.

This person gets it. TFA I wanted to see the next one, yeah Rey was a bit OP but it was fun. TLJ not so much.

Stopped buying SW merch after the Disney buyout. Mine was mostly comics and novels, not action figures. Just didn't want to go through it again and took a wait and see approach and the Aftermath Trilogy basically confirmed it (compared with the Thrawn Trilogy).

Nuke the old EU sure can't really make a new movie out of it. Replace it with something worse erm no thanks. I would have nuked the post Endor stuff and cherry picked some of the old EU for the new canon mostly KotOR stuff and some of the prequel books like the Vader and Darth Bane/Plageius books. People seemed to like them and it would not interfere with the new movies.

I'll probably go see IX regardless, but I watched TFA 3 times at the theatre and paid to rent it online as well.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart. It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.

The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore. They aren't really interested. It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool. What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success. Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise? Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi. Predictions are all over the place. Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater. Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands. Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.
What?! TLJ grossed over a $1B and has good reviews (see above). You should actually collect facts before assuming your opinion is representative of a huge number of people.
 

GreyLord

Hero
What?! TLJ grossed over a $1B and has good reviews (see above). You should actually collect facts before assuming your opinion is representative of a huge number of people.

Okay...I can see someone did not read a thing I wrote...either that or didn't understand what I wrote.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think to grokked you. You clearly said TLJ was a "disaster" for the "casual fans." A "disaster" that's one of tge highest grossing movies of all time (inflation adjusted) and that has positive reviews. You base this on reception of a different movie and toy sales being sluggish, apparently. It's riduculous, especially since there are already good explanations for both that don't invlove TLJ (Solo wasn't a desired story and had very expensive production, frex.) You even counter yourself when you say toy sales are down but it's not the toy company's fault, but also that the toys are boring and unfun. How does that work, exactly?

Again, you've started with thinking you know what a group of fans likes and are ignoring strong counter-evidence or just hand-waving it away. That's not how it works, man.
 

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?
This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".
The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart. It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.
No True Scotsman. He's the thing… there is a big spike of people rating this movie a "1" is high. Higher than Phantom Menace. But a solid majority of viewers rate this movie the same or higher than Phantom Menace. The people who hate the movie are a small, insignificant percentage. Most people, casual AND hardcore *liked* this film.
The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore. They aren't really interested. It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.
Based on what? The one data point we have is Solo, but it's foolish to draw any reliable conclusion from a single data point. Maybe people just didn't want a Solo movie? Maybe people were scared off by the drama of the changing directors? Maybe it came too soon after TLJ and people weren't ready for more Star Wars. Maybe too many people needed a break from big blockbuster movies after Deadpool 2 released the week before and Infinity War three weeks prior? People seem very excited for both the new Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ and Episode IX.
This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.
Because kids care about the quality of a movie when they buy their toys? Yeah… I don't think so. I have an eight-year-old. He'll watch anything.The toys were released too far ahead of the movie, so they weren't available during holidays, or when people cared about the movie. They dropped in September and weren't able to hold interest until December. Also, if you read the toy threads, the big complaint is that the diversity of the toys is limited. There were fewer new aliens, vehicles, and the like. Toys bought from the previous movie would work. And there's some complaints about quality. It's unrelated to TLJ and would have happened even if TLJ was a smash.
It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.
That's just wrong.It isn't limited to Star Wars. Toy sales are down across the board. By 2%. Haso revenue dropped 2% as well. But rival Mattel dropped 12%And Toys R Us closing also hit toy sales hard, as there were fewer places to buy said toys.
Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.
BS.There is a very clear racist and sexist hatred for the movie and its actors. Again, when you look at the number of 1-star ratings for the film, that percentage is twice as high for men than women. If the film was just bad, both genders would rate it equally, like they had done with every prior Star Wars film.While you may believe your own complaints aren't based in misogyny (I can't say) don't kid yourself and pretend the hatred doesn't exist.
I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.
RUINED FOREVER!!TLJ made 1.3 billion at the box office alone, and an untold amount on disc, VOD, and steaming. That's probably pure profit of 3/4 of a billion dollars. That's deep trouble?Does anyone remotely think for a SECOND that Episode IX won't do equally well? Especially since it will have been a year-and-a-half since Solo and people are already gagging for more Star Wars...
 

Zardnaar

Legend
This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".No True Scotsman. He's the thing… there is a big spike of people rating this movie a "1" is high. Higher than Phantom Menace. But a solid majority of viewers rate this movie the same or higher than Phantom Menace. The people who hate the movie are a small, insignificant percentage. Most people, casual AND hardcore *liked* this film.Based on what? The one data point we have is Solo, but it's foolish to draw any reliable conclusion from a single data point. Maybe people just didn't want a Solo movie? Maybe people were scared off by the drama of the changing directors? Maybe it came too soon after TLJ and people weren't ready for more Star Wars. Maybe too many people needed a break from big blockbuster movies after Deadpool 2 released the week before and Infinity War three weeks prior? People seem very excited for both the new Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ and Episode IX. Because kids care about the quality of a movie when they buy their toys? Yeah… I don't think so. I have an eight-year-old. He'll watch anything.The toys were released too far ahead of the movie, so they weren't available during holidays, or when people cared about the movie. They dropped in September and weren't able to hold interest until December. Also, if you read the toy threads, the big complaint is that the diversity of the toys is limited. There were fewer new aliens, vehicles, and the like. Toys bought from the previous movie would work. And there's some complaints about quality. It's unrelated to TLJ and would have happened even if TLJ was a smash.That's just wrong.It isn't limited to Star Wars. Toy sales are down across the board. By 2%. Haso revenue dropped 2% as well. But rival Mattel dropped 12%And Toys R Us closing also hit toy sales hard, as there were fewer places to buy said toys.BS.There is a very clear racist and sexist hatred for the movie and its actors. Again, when you look at the number of 1-star ratings for the film, that percentage is twice as high for men than women. If the film was just bad, both genders would rate it equally, like they had done with every prior Star Wars film.While you may believe your own complaints aren't based in misogyny (I can't say) don't kid yourself and pretend the hatred doesn't exist. RUINED FOREVER!!TLJ made 1.3 billion at the box office alone, and an untold amount on disc, VOD, and steaming. That's probably pure profit of 3/4 of a billion dollars. That's deep trouble?Does anyone remotely think for a SECOND that Episode IX won't do equally well? Especially since it will have been a year-and-a-half since Solo and people are already gagging for more Star Wars...

TFA made 700 million on 2 billion so yeah IIDK if TLJ actually made that much I assume they spent less pushing it in places like CHina where they flew a heap of stormtroopers out to pose on the wall.

I'm not pretending the hatred doesn't exist, squeaky wheels tend to get as lot of grease. TLJ is not a one star movie, its way to early to call IX one way or another. THeres enough wrong with TLJ as is I htink from plot points or likeable charatcers or where tdo you go from here.

For example if you are a Rey fan what do you do with her in IX. Do you want her to defeat Kylo or redeem him or something else. Kylo is weak he has been losing since TFA so its not very dramatic if he loses again. What hobbies or interests does Rey have (Luke wanted to go to the academy).

Getting away from Rey we'll look at Finn. He runs like a coward in TFA. We'll give him a pass it happens early in the movie, like Han towards the end of the movie he is a hero- he has found his courage. TLJ rolls around and he is running again back to where he started.

Poe. Was not actually in TFA that much but we know he is a damn good pilot and that is shown later in the film. TLJ rolls around he he gets his squadron killed of to the last man (women), even the death star run had a few survivors. They portray him as a hot head right through the film.

Kylo Ren.
Comes across as a whiny kid. They didnt seem to follow up on his thing about Snoke training him at the end of TFA.

HUx
Hux was great in TFA, I kinda want to pay money to see him lose. Gets used as comic relief.

Phasma.
Potentially a great new character. And then she oses again for the 2nd movie in a row. Looks kewl her look can't back up her lameness as a villain.

Snoke
Heres your new big bad, he is interesting and now he is dead. It was kind of clever how they portrayed him reading Kylos mood though. They got rid of him a one movie to early this would have been a great scene for the 3rd movie.

And this is how the characters are barely tied together. They were hinting at a romance angle with Rey and Finn for example. Nope that lead no where as well. Anaklns lightsaber scene in TFA interesting yes, nope it got broken. New big ass ship, nope got trashed as well. JJ seeded lots of little plot hooks. There is subverting audience expectations (the farm girl saves the prince) and then there is the chainsaw approach. They never even really put much effort into explaining the First Order and how they are so powerful post Endor. A simple line about the rebirth of the empire rising from the ashes would have been fine you don't need to put a massive amount into it.

Its not just limited to Rey its everything good from TFA basically was not followed up on or thrown away. As bad at TPM and AotC were (and they were bad) it had better world building and character development. Didn't care about Anakin or Padme in the prequels that much but Obi Wan was good. Anakin was decent enough in RoTS.

And its not just Rey using force powers untrained we have a kid using telekinesis as well. Seeing Rey plow through everything unscathed might work alright in a different genre like a super hero movie but even in an action movie the protagonist isn't usually portrayed as invincible. John McClane in Die Hard. Kinda works better in cartoons.

The reason people seem excited about the Disney cartoons was Rebels was very good, tied it back to the OT and Clone Wars well and used returning characters like Thrawn and Ahsoka well. Ahsoka was annoying when she debuted (because she was a kid a'la Anakin in TPM) but she is great now. You also cared about the new characters like Sabine, Hera, Ezra. The best Star Wars since the OT has been the cartoons.

Fantasy Booking

TFA mostly as is. In the end scene Kylo kills Han, Chewie takes the shot. Kylo being a powerful bad guy negates it a'la vader, uses somethign like a force shield or feels it coming and dodges it.

Rey gets away and the movie proceeds to the duel. Kylo is unwounded and owns Rey+ Finn but they survive but Kylo is wounded in the duel (the heroes flee). Otherwise the duel roughly happens as is. The crack opens in the ground and the movie ends more or less as is.

In a hypothetical part XIII Rey gets trained, Kylo also gets trained, Snoke sends him out and about and Rey and him have a brief encounter. Like Anakin and Obi Wan they try using force powers on each other but they counter it. Episode XIII ends Snoke is still around and Rey+Kylos encounter is a draw. In Part IX Rey encounters Lukes force ghost, some revelation, later on we get the final. They have the throne room scene and then Rey and Kylo face each other and if its a combat Rey wins. All this really changes is.

1. Kylo is powerful in TFA. He is an effective villain can stop blaster bolts in mid air and can dodge bowcaster shots or otherwise survive them.

2. While powerful he is not vader. Gets more training, so does Kylo. Rey is a better student, encounter 2 is a draw makes it different from Empire where Vader wins.

3. Something happens to Rey and she gets even more powerful (she learns to draw on the dark side perhaps). She has enough power to now go and defeat Kylo/Snoke. Anakin and Luke both took down Sith lords in the 3rd movie, Snoke/Kylo are not Sith but you get my point.
 
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Heres enough wrong with TLJ as is I think from plot points or likeable characters or where do you go from here.
It's not nearly as hard as you make it.

Heck, after Empire it looked like Star Wars 3 would be all about saving Han and a big rescue mission. Instead, they resolved that whole plot arc in like 15 minutes and then moved on, pretty much dropping most of the seeds sown by THE BEST Star Wars movie in favour of recycling the plot of Star Wars 1.

There's no shortage of directions they can go.
Heck, it's significantly easier to think of storylines for Episode IX than it was to think of a story for Episode VII.

Story Hook 1: Hux vs Ren
The Resistance has gone to ground, hiding and rebuilding its numbers, waiting for its time to strike. The First Order has been cementing its grip but the tensions between General Hux and Kylo Ren for control and leadership have been growing, and are now reaching a climax. With the First Order poised to turn on itself, they're distracted and now is the Resistance's time to strike a decisive blow.

Story Hook 2: Knights of Ren
Seeking to end the threat of Rey before she can become a full Jedi and begin training others, Ren dispatches his Knights to hunt her down.
The story is more of a chase, as Rey tries to elude the knights, fighting them when she thinks she has the advantage. But the longer the hunt goes on the more tired and injured she becomes.

Story Hook 3: Another Spherical Super Weapon
This is almost certainly what they'll do, because Abrams hasn't had an original idea and all his films copy something else. So he'll do a big homage to Return of the Jedi and cycle back to the First Order making yet another planet destroying weapon that a fleet of ships needs to blow up.

[video=youtube;yd0j97RhZUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0j97RhZUQ[/video]

Regardless, Episode IX will be about the death of Kylo Ren.
He's the final member of the Skywalker line, which has been the heart of the "Star Wars Saga". He needs to die and end that storyline, freeing up the franchise to go in different directions rather than being shackled to the idea of an Episode X, which will invariably have to negate the victories of the heroes in Episode IX.

The reason people seem excited about the Disney cartoons was Rebels was very good, tied it back to the OT and Clone Wars well and used returning characters like Thrawn and Ahsoka well. Ahsoka was annoying when she debuted (because she was a kid a'la Anakin in TPM) but she is great now. You also cared about the new characters like Sabine, Hera, Ezra. The best Star Wars since the OT has been the cartoons.
I'll come out and say it: Rebels was okay at best. A far cry from the amazing peaks of Clone Wars.

Rebels got better but it started weak. Really weak. Nowhere planet. Irrelevant stakes. Unlikable characters. Plus, having a surviving Jedi that lived despite being a young Padawan, making the deaths of so many trained Jedi seem cheap and minimizes the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda.
It got better around the later seasons when they started building to the Rebel Alliance and brought in Ashoka. But they couldn't even give her a proper death and chickened out.

And funny how you're silent about Resistance...
 

Zardnaar

Legend
It's not nearly as hard as you make it.

Heck, after Empire it looked like Star Wars 3 would be all about saving Han and a big rescue mission. Instead, they resolved that whole plot arc in like 15 minutes and then moved on, pretty much dropping most of the seeds sown by THE BEST Star Wars movie in favour of recycling the plot of Star Wars 1.

There's no shortage of directions they can go.
Heck, it's significantly easier to think of storylines for Episode IX than it was to think of a story for Episode VII.

Story Hook 1: Hux vs Ren
The Resistance has gone to ground, hiding and rebuilding its numbers, waiting for its time to strike. The First Order has been cementing its grip but the tensions between General Hux and Kylo Ren for control and leadership have been growing, and are now reaching a climax. With the First Order poised to turn on itself, they're distracted and now is the Resistance's time to strike a decisive blow.

Story Hook 2: Knights of Ren
Seeking to end the threat of Rey before she can become a full Jedi and begin training others, Ren dispatches his Knights to hunt her down.
The story is more of a chase, as Rey tries to elude the knights, fighting them when she thinks she has the advantage. But the longer the hunt goes on the more tired and injured she becomes.

Story Hook 3: Another Spherical Super Weapon
This is almost certainly what they'll do, because Abrams hasn't had an original idea and all his films copy something else. So he'll do a big homage to Return of the Jedi and cycle back to the First Order making yet another planet destroying weapon that a fleet of ships needs to blow up.

[video=youtube;yd0j97RhZUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0j97RhZUQ[/video]

Regardless, Episode IX will be about the death of Kylo Ren.
He's the final member of the Skywalker line, which has been the heart of the "Star Wars Saga". He needs to die and end that storyline, freeing up the franchise to go in different directions rather than being shackled to the idea of an Episode X, which will invariably have to negate the victories of the heroes in Episode IX.


I'll come out and say it: Rebels was okay at best. A far cry from the amazing peaks of Clone Wars.

Rebels got better but it started weak. Really weak. Nowhere planet. Irrelevant stakes. Unlikable characters. Plus, having a surviving Jedi that lived despite being a young Padawan, making the deaths of so many trained Jedi seem cheap and minimizes the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda.
It got better around the later seasons when they started building to the Rebel Alliance and brought in Ashoka. But they couldn't even give her a proper death and chickened out.

And funny how you're silent about Resistance...

IDK what Resistance is about. And there is a reaosn RotJ is regarded as the weakest of the original 3.

I liked Season 2 of rebels on. Found it easier to get into than season 1 of TCW.
 
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Remember when Luke went up against Vader in the New Hope and defeated him in a Light Saber duel?

Me neither.

Anakin defeated Dooku as well IIRC as well in AoTC.

The one main tweak I would have made is Rey losing to Kylo or giving her a tweaked back story (which I think she needs anyway).

Luke in his first time in combat and his first time in an X-wing went up against professional elite pilots and kicked their asses while outflying almost all the experienced Rebel Alliance pilots. He then makes a literally impossible shot, turning off his targeting computer when Obi-Wan tells him to use the force.

As for the lightsaber battle, if you watched then Darth Emo was kicking Rey's ass despite her being an experienced staff-fighter (established earlier in the story; there's far more textual evidence Rey could handle herself in melee in actual combat than that Rey had flown anything more than his speeder). And then he made a mistake - he told her to use the force at which point she called on the dark side of the force (seriously, look at her face during that scene - that isn't peace and serenity or other light side things) and was able to overcome what had previously been impossible for her. They both had help from a more experienced force user in order to pull off their huge thing at the end.

The three big differences are that kicking Darth Emo's ass when he isn't using the force isn't that humanly impossible, being thrown in the deep end and swimming by having your mind invaded, then by force of will reversing it and seeing how to use the force from inside the head of a force user (as Rey did) is far more useful in learning to use the Force than poncing around with a blindfold against shock globes (which is about the equivalent of water wings in the baby pool), and her skills are legitimately gained with staff fighting (and she fought with the lightsaber as if it was a staff) rather than beyond professional in her first fight nonsense with an X-wing
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Luke in his first time in combat and his first time in an X-wing went up against professional elite pilots and kicked their asses while outflying almost all the experienced Rebel Alliance pilots. He then makes a literally impossible shot, turning off his targeting computer when Obi-Wan tells him to use the force.

You may want to watch that movie again, Luke gets saved from the professional elite pilots by Han.

If it was Rey then she would have just killed them all herself while all the other X-Wings watch, she is that good.
 

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