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Star Wars What I Would Have Done

pukunui

Legend
Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best.
I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely.

Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And in RotJ, Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.

The “light side” is an EU concept, and sadly it seems Disney has bought into it. In TFA, Leia says she can sense there’s still “light” in her son. And Luke espouses the whole balance between light and dark in TLJ as well.

I prefer “good” over “light”.

Also, the chosen one was to balance the force, not be the strongest.
A prophecy that misread could have been.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
I’m partial to Lucas’ idea that the dark side is a cancer and that “restoring the balance” means getting rid of it completely.

Note how in the OT, it’s “the Force” vs the “dark side of the Force”. No one ever says anything about a “light side”. And Luke says he can sense that there’s still “good” in his father.

The “light side” is an EU concept, and sadly it seems Disney has bought into it. Leia says she can sense there’s still “light” in her son.

I prefer “good” over “light”.

A prophecy that misread could have been.

The force seems to balance itself. That and you can't wipe the dark side out. Might regret that statement in December.

I probably would have preferred a new story in the Star Wars Galaxy but a sequel to rotj plus the 3 legacy characters makes sense financially.

Alot of the good legends material got away from the force or put it into the distant past or in the late EU 140 years after Jedi.

If they make Rey the chosen one the fans will riot lol. It would explain Rey in the worst way. Lucas was always clear the saga was about Anakin.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Out of the various force philosophies in canon, legends etc I think I like the balance best. The Sith or whatever will always be recreated through Jedi that fall.

Legends was hinting at that at the end of Fate of the Jedi which overall was a bit meh but the young Sith girl I liked and how they portrayed her temptation to the light with Ben.

Not much is original in the new ones;) The dark side temptation to the light is interesting.
There are no Sith in Ep 7&8.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.

But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).
 



Zardnaar

Legend
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.

But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).


EU Luke had some terrible plot devices, kid Anakin was worse than Rey. At least Daisy can express emotions on her face and she seems to be a decent actor. Lucas drew on the old EU its where name Coruscant and Palpatine came from, along with Maul's double bladed lightsaber. Message boards and social media mostly didn't exist 20 years ago when TPM landed, and TFA>TPM any day of the week.
In the new canon they lifted Thrawn and TIE defenders from the old EU so they're plugging stuff back in.

I just thought they could have learnt some things from the opld EU and improved on it. The basic plot of TFA for example is recycled from 25 odd years ago (Imperial faction check, darksider check, superweapon check). They also had some very interesting female Jedi and other characters. For example if they're not going to make Rey part of a famous family like the skywalkers or Kenobi etc they should have giving her a better back ground rather than "you're a nobody" which may or may not get retconned.

Compare Rey with Jynn Erso from Rogue One. They only had one movie there to do anything with but yeah I cared about her as she had a background I liked they did a great job there. You kind of wanted her to get a happy ending reuniting with her dad, but that was not to be. Because I liked her character her death at the end of the movie meant something.
 

Zardnaar

Legend

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?

I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it. Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
What I keep noticing in these threads is that the loudest that complain are big fans of the old EU. They compare everything to it, including saying how they'd use story elements from this EU character for the movies instead of the other. They ignore exactly how loud they'd howl over the retread if that did happen, though, while howling over the EP4 retreads for TFA.

I think this fandom of the EU is the core of this. Take Luke. Luke in TLJ is a pretty easy reach from where he was at the end of RotJ if you only consider the cannon in the movies. It's only when you add in his superbadassness from the EU that it becomes unbelievable, because THAT Luke had very different choices to make and situations he was in that don't lead to his exile. But, if you're wedded to the EU, either because you really liked it (eh) or because you enjoyed having encyclopedic SW knowledge and the geek cred that came with it (or both), TLJ Luke is a "slap in the face." Further, you'll always be looking to the books for the flimsy justifications for why those Mary/Gary Sue/Stus did their impossible BS because it only takes a line in a book to say "trained with badass so and so" for that to somehow be "onscreen" enough to justify their magical powers of badassery. But Rey? Rey is better than Luke in the stories -- gets power faster (or so claimed), does more impressive things (or so claimed), and makes better choices (compared to the ones Luke has made between movies). This can't stand, because Luke, so the engine of dismissal kicks in. There's fair overlap with the misogynist crowd who would do it because she's a girl, but I think a lot of it comes just because she's replacing a favored mythology with something that's different.
Luke didn't really have to become more powerful. But I can't see how a Luke that turned Darth Vader back from the Dark Side of the force, a Luke that risked life and limb (literally) to try to save his friends on Bspin or from Jabba the Hut, would turn his back on his best friends, his family in a time of need. It just doesn't feel like the Luke from the movies.


But, if you consider, Rey in TFA is really Luke at the start of ESB, not ANH. Luke in ANH lives in a small, safe world, on of work, but also comfort. He isn't hungry, or thirsty, he's well clothed, has a home, a loving family, and wants to run off and join the Empire as a pilot. He gets sucked into the bigger conflict, has his eyes opened, and, by the end of the movie, is sniping soldiers from across a hanger bay, engaging in high-stakes dogfights, and using the force to make an impossible shot. Then, he's a leader of the Rebellion (enough so that they'll sortie into dangerous weather conditions to find him) and is using the force to grab lightsabers at range while injured, kill ATATs with a snowspeeder, and killing ATATs singlehandedly with a grappling hook and grenade. He gets to wander off on his own, free from Rebellion command, and finally faces down one of the most powerful Sith ever and does okay on his own (loses but escapes).

Now, take Rey. She starts having to clamber through dangerous wrecks in increasingly acrobatic ways to earn enough scrap to eat. She lives in a wrecked ATAT. She has to fight to keep her things, likely daily. She good at fighting (she knocks off two enforcers pretty easily and kicks the :):):):) out of a stormtrooper (granted, Finn)). From here, you get backstory that she's been working on the Falcon for years, and she flies it pretty well, but no where near as well as Chewie or Han would. But, this feat is just too much -- no way a force sensitive pilot can do less than a normal human despite the fact that Anakin was the only human who could pilot a podracer and at the age of 8. Or that Luke hit an impossible shot in an X-wing the first time he ever flew a combat mission. Neither with extensive training. Rey is already a capable human -- she has to fight daily to survive in very harsh conditions where she must adapt and be flexible just to grab some scrap so she can eat, where she has to protect her claim from violence, and where her 'benefactor' has no problem sending thugs to steal from her. But, no, she's just way too competent compared to the pampered farmboy because she was better than him. If you compare to Luke from ESB, it's a bit closer.

And, Rey at the end of TFA, does beat Kylo, but Kylo is an apprentice, still -- powerful but raw. This plot point is mentioned a number of times. Further, during the fight, he was already badly wounded, had just killed his father (and was very conflicted about it), and still was beating Rey right up until he reminded her to use the Force. You know, the Force that let Luke make an impossible shot, the Force that let Anakin fly podracers or surf a crashing capital ship to a safe(ish) landing? And, haven't we seen that untrained Force users can often do outrageous things by accident that then take effort to learn how to do on purpose? But, nope, Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH, Rey can't beat Kylo when he's hurt and conflicted in TFA.

And, point of fact, the next time they met, Kylo had to save Rey from Snoke (Luke managed to escape Vader on his own), and then help her survive the guards fight, and then they fought to a standstill over the lightsaber.


As an aside, I was rewatching TLJ with my kids a few months ago and noticed something I missed the first few times through. When Rey is training with the lightsaber at the stone, that scene finishes with her cleanly striking through the stone in one swing (which gets an eye-twitch from Luke). That's a subtle showing of just how strong she is because where else have you seen a lightsaber cut that easily through anything nearly as large and dense? They tend to bounce off of things (and it looked like they had been bouncing off that rock for a loooong time already).

I notice that you don't respond to one observation by me: It doesn't really matter that you can explain the winning, regardless of whether you can bring good arguments or not. The thing is - there is no sense of struggle. And it might actually be justified in TFA, since Luke isn't struggling all that much in ANH either, except emotional (death of his uncle and aunt, death of Obi-Wan, which mirrors Rey's struggle to leave her homeworld behind, and also Finn's struggle to not just run away from the First Order, but run towards the Resistance and Rey). But he is in definitely struggling in ESB, on Hoth in the cold, on Dagobah in his training, and finally when confronting Vader. He gets to come out alive, but he had to work for it.
But Rey doesn't seem to struggle - she learns Jedi stuff, she helps Kylo beat the First Order's lead man, and gets everyone to safety. (Where as Luke's presence on Bespin wasn't actually important even, he mostly got himself in trouble). The only thing she is hit with is basically the claim that her parents are nobodies - which most people's parents probably are, and most people still would want to know why their parents would leave them. Even a nobody's answer is interesting here for the child left behind.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
That is a pretty good imagination that you have there, tell me exactly how loud they would howl if Disney made a good follow on movie to the original series?

I think it is pretty easy for the haters to just lump everything together under a label like EU and then bash it, as if everything in the EU was somekind of literary masterpiece, and then make some far fetched claim that people hate x becuase they changed it. Of course people are going to look at everything else that is around and compare it.

Never claimed the EU was great. I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down.

The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.

It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Never claimed the EU was great.

Never claimed that you did.

I did say. They could have learnt from it and cherry picked the good parts.
EU had plenty of interesting female force users for example. Rey is kinda boring because of her lack of character development/struggle. Her and Kylo have basically made 0 progression as characters since the start of TFA. There's no emotion there because the new character s barely know each other and Rey didn't have Beru and Lars to get mowed down.

Agreed. Maybe it is the kinda thing that you need to read the books to get the real backstory for, like how the Cylon woman is supposed to have a great back story.

The pacing is also off along with big plot holes. Finn for example can't pilot in TFA that's what Poe is for no problem in TLJ though despite it being hours or days after TFA. There's a 3 year gap between ESB and ANH and even if it's not clear in the movies how much time had passed you know some time had passed as the rebels have had time to build a new base.

It's just nonsensical stuff like this that TLJ screwed up with along with fairly minimal character development

The space chase did seem to be kinda strange. Oops forgot to fill up on Space Petrol, doh.
 

Hussar

Legend
A question.

What's with all the Phasma love? Ok, shiny armor storm trooper. Cool. Neat. Who cares? How can this character be "wasted"? Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.

Pretty much the same as Boba Fett.

I suppose I might just be answering my own question. :D

And one other thing. People are actually bitching about the scene in TFA when Rey pilots the Falcon through the wreck of a Star Destroyer? SERIOUSLY? That's a freaking GORGEOUS scene. One of the most memorable scenes in any Star Wars movies.

You'd want to eject that scene because it makes the female lead look too good?

Just like D&D, I'm really, REALLY glad Star Wars is not in the hands of fans.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
A question.

What's with all the Phasma love? Ok, shiny armor storm trooper. Cool. Neat. Who cares? How can this character be "wasted"? Minor, bit character injected for a bit of humor.

Pretty much the same as Boba Fett.

I suppose I might just be answering my own question. :D

And one other thing. People are actually bitching about the scene in TFA when Rey pilots the Falcon through the wreck of a Star Destroyer? SERIOUSLY? That's a freaking GORGEOUS scene. One of the most memorable scenes in any Star Wars movies.

You'd want to eject that scene because it makes the female lead look too good?

Just like D&D, I'm really, REALLY glad Star Wars is not in the hands of fans.

Lots of things look good Rey and Kylos lightsaber duel. It's not because she us a good pilot but she's good at everything with very little to no explanation in a universe where it's been established in canon that you have to train for force powers. Luke got pwned by Tuskans raiders. He wasn't good at melee, wasn't good with the force, and got his butt handed to him alot.

I did say Kylo and Rey both had great introductions though.
Throw in the plot holes poor character development, characters like Finn regressing, Luke's basic person ality doing a 180 and the interesting seeds TFA planted and thrown away. TFA was enjoyable if a bit reptitive but one can see way they did it.

As for Phasma the actor helps and you answered your own question. If you wanted a positive example of a great female character she had potential. I like Hux as a villain to but they wrote them like chumps. Basically you don't end up caring about any of the villains or the protagonists. Even Fett had his moment of glory.
 
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MGibster

Legend
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.
 

cmad1977

Hero
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.

All of this makes sense and all but you have to remember the one real issue in all of this.

She’s a girl. A GIRL!!
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

I loved Jones in James Bond!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I always wonder when I hear people bring up diversity in Star Wars movies today because things seemed so different in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. Nobody complained about characters like Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Aunty Entity, or Sarah Connor (1990s version) when those movies were released but these days there is a contingent of people who complain incessantly when women are cast in roles. There are people who dislike Rey simply because she's a female character. We've seen many women harassed online including Kelly Tran (Rose Tico) and Leslie Jones (Ghostbusters remake) to such a degree that they've abandoned social media sites.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to dislike TFA and TLJ. I've got some problems especially with TLJ. But Rey is a Mary Sue is a weird argument to make. We're talking about a lady who grew up with a hardscrabble existence and no doubt made extensive use of her staff to fight on her own behalf. Within the context of a high fantasy setting like Star Wars I've got no problem with her being an awesome heroin. Hell, in TFA it took her and Finn both to beat Ren and that was after he had been shot by Chewbacca.

Social media didn't exist back then and certain segments online are cancer.

Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes). They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to.

Consider things like Wonder Women, Black Panther, or the Orville. People seem to like those shows, they're diverse and they have power and interesting characters. For new stuff it can go either way.

Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo). Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect. Sure characters can change but you probably need to see that on screen and have it happen naturally so to speak. Jaimie Lannister for example.

That is really the problem, taking older franchises that people like and then drastically changing them or perceived to be pushing a social agenda. If that is fair or not IDK but that is the way things are. Generally you go watch a movie for fun unless its something serious like Schindlers List. Even then social issues can still be enjoyable and make you think (see The Orville its great) but however you do it it still needs to be fun and clever.

Game of Thrones is also doing it right (GRR Martin is a feminist), it has a lot of great female characters heroes and villains, one of them is probably the most popular (Arya). Moana is another good example that movie was stupidly popular here in general and the Polynesians loved it. Orange the New Black also comes to mind. These shows/movies have great writing. A slight counter example might be Sense 8 which had a great season 1 but they messed up season 2 a bit IMHO.

Not all characters need a background or explanation. If someone is a Jedi, Sith, marine, soldier etc it kind of assumed they're a badass. Having them grow into it though is also an old trope (Sarah Connor T1 vs T2, Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier). Sometimes movie makers mess up and the character you think would work out another one is more popular. Harley Quinn is sticking around (Robbie Margot), Jared Leto's joker is going bye bye. I don't think they deliberately aimed for that to happen and that is in a genre with a "toxic fanbase" but the female character is more popular probably because the male one was crap and Robbie was great.

Sure the 100% hard core extremists the ones harassing Rose's actor online you can't really save them. I suspect a few of them are young (under 30 or 20), and social media lets any idiot with an opinion express it, people might even vote for him. There is also other things going on like the cost of movies getting to the point a new movie is a massive risk financially and there is not a lot of 80's franchises with female leads. I would have had a female lad myself I would have fleshed out her back ground or just made her a Jedi or other force using tradition. Then if the force awakens she can still be the receptacle but she would already be a bad ass or she gets unleashed after training a bit with Luke. Even a simple passage of time thing could be used in a different TLJ there is a lot of things that could have been done.
 
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Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
Leia spoiled princess to rebel soldier
On screen, she was never a spoiled princess. She was a confident Rebel and also a Princess from the moment we see her - it's probably what Han and Luke (definitely Han) think she is, but her actions pretty much show her as resourceful. However, she still has some things to struggle with - like losing her entire homeworld in front of her eyes to a power demonstration, despite her trying her best possible in the situation to trick Tarkin into thinking he got what he wanted and spare her world.
 

MGibster

Legend
Those women are also organically popular and they are written different than Rey. Sarah Connor and Ripley both took a beating for example. They were also in original franchises that had no in universe expectations of how things are (they didn't have 6 movies before them establishing tropes).

I've been a huge fan of Star Wars for almost my entire life and I cannot think of any single way Rey's character runs against the established grain of the universe as established by the movies.

They also didn't have Kathleen Kennedy waltz around with shirts on them saying the force is female in a franchise where the majority of the fans are male and where the force is genderless. They also had interesting male characters people could relate to.

I don't really keep up with behind-the-scenes antics of any of the media I consume. For the most part I just care about the final product.

Also consider if they remade Thelma and Louise but called it Ted and Bob and recast the two females as males and then made the female characters idiots (Hux, Poe, Kylo).

Ren doesn't seem particularly incompetent to me. By the end of the second movie he's maneuvered himself into the supreme leader's position.

Or they made a new Terminator movie and wrote Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) as a pacifist who was pro AI or something. Her character is almost a 180 over what people would expect.

Rey is a new character not an old character written in a different way. Nor is she a character that doesn't fit into the Star Wars milieu. Nothing about Rey is what I wouldn't expect in a Star Wars movie. If she wasn't a woman I don't think anyone would even be having this conversation. For example, nobody seems upset that Fin knew how to fight with a lightsaber.
 

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