Stat requirements

Storm Raven said:
Skill Focus gives a +3 unnamed bonus to skill checks with the relevant skill. It does not grant skill ranks.

All of the standard magic items that provide a bonus to an ability score (belts of Strength, cloaks of Charisma, gloves of Dexterity and so on) provide an enhancement bonus to the ability score itself. To be analogous to your Skill Focus argument, they would have to say something like "provides a +X bonus to ABILITY checks". They don't. They say "provides a +X enhancement bonus to ABILITY".

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Incorrect. It provides a +7 armor bonus.


That's not quite right, either. In the interest of accuracy:

It provides an armor bonus +7 including an enhancement of +3. It's important to note it that way because another enhancement bonus won't stack on top of the +7 but must be greater than the +3 enhancement to improve the +7 at all. Enhancement bonuses are... special.

As for the topic at hand, DM's call, clearly. No clear rules support either way in that one can easily read the rules to support either view.
 

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Patryn of Elvenshae said:
You're talking about the Great [X] feats, yes?

Keep in mind that, generally speaking, they aren't available as bonus feats - meaning that it'll take you 30 Epic levels to get a +10 to an ability score.

True, but the point is that at various levels, you could qualify for an ability score prerequisite for an Epic feat by acquiring permanent bonuses via the Great feats and other means.

For example, a Sun Elf (+2 racial) Wizard that started with an 18 Int (20 because of race) could boost his Int every 4 levels from levels 4 though 28 (+7), add 5 more inherent due to Wish spells (+5) and take 2 Great feats at levels 23 and 26 to get a total of 34 Int without any magical items at level 28. Even without Wishes or Great Feats, such a character could qualify for a 25 prerequisite at level 20.

Granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates that you can get any of the typically 25 or lower prerequisites (and even the 30 ones) without a single magical item.


What I don't like about using non-permanent spells or items to qualify for Epic Feats is that it allows characters to boost ALL of their ability scores such that they can qualify for many of the feats. This just feels wrong to me.
 

KarinsDad said:
Granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates that you can get any of the typically 25 or lower prerequisites (and even the 30 ones) without a single magical item.

But only in your prime ability.

{Side note: He can take Great Int at 21 and 24.}

What I don't like about using non-permanent spells or items to qualify for Epic Feats is that it allows characters to boost ALL of their ability scores such that they can qualify for many of the feats. This just feels wrong to me.

Boost all of them? Nah - but a barbarian who has taken the time, effort, and resources to get the 25 Charisma required for Incite Rage has dedicated a disproportionately large amount of character resources to do so (especially given normal barbarian stat arrrays).

Within those resources are the +5 Inherent bonus he's got to Charisma instead of Constitution, the +8 Headband of Persuasiveness instead of the Boots of Holy Crap Speed, etc. He's made some largely suboptimal choices to get this far.
 

KarinsDad said:
What I don't like about using non-permanent spells or items to qualify for Epic Feats is that it allows characters to boost ALL of their ability scores such that they can qualify for many of the feats. This just feels wrong to me.

Well, in practice you can't really get all the ability scores up unless the character's starting stats are way above normal, or the game is handing out piles and piles of cash.

If you allow items to satisfy prerequisites, you can hit the 25s if you have a 14 to start with and sink 137,500 gp (book for inherent bonus) plus 36,000 gp (+6 enhancement bonus item) into the stat. Note that you can't have six 14s as a 28 or even a 32 point buy character.

173,500 is quite a large chunk of a level 20 character's starting wealth. If they're self- or party- crafted the cost is less, except the book maker is now spending 25,500 XP per stat that he's going to do this for (and 138 days!), which is in my experience prohibitive.

On top of that, you're using up an item slot, which is an often overlooked cost.

Doing it for multiple stats is even more resource-intensive, and there are certainly classes for whom you might want to qualify for feats based off of 4 or 5 stats (paladins for example.)

Note that settlement size GP limits essentially put a cap on what you can buy at around 300,000 gp. That means that you can't just waltz out and buy epic enhancement bonus items. Those will need to be found, crafted, or commissioned. I suspect in many games, you're not allowed to just pop over to the local planar metropolis, plunk down your cash, and buy an inherent bonus book already. We actually allowed this for a little while, and the game still didn't break.

It is I think, adequately difficult for characters to qualify for epic feats. At level 25, for example, I still haven't had the resources or the time to get my fighter's dex high enough to qualify for anything interesting from that stat. He's had to stick entirely to the strength chain, pretty much. While my constitution is now high enough to start looking at stuff like damage reduction or fast healing, the fact is even as a fighter I've only had 4 feat slots to spend, and those have gone to strength chain optoins. I think that's as designed. I would have loved to go for Epic Leadership too, but even with allowing item bonuses to help qualify, that feat is basically totally out of reach for me and my 10 starting charisma. There's no way to buy the +10 charisma item that I would need (300,000 gp limit!) and spending feats and level-up points on charisma as an alternative would be horribly inefficient for someone with the fighter's party role - plus we might hit level 32 (when I could qualify after spending 2 feats, 2 level up points, and spending the 173,500 gp and burning my cloak slot on charisma) in about the year 2010.

I think one thing that is overlooked sometimes in epic discussions is just how slow advancement gets at these levels. Putting requirements for things past level 30 or so is essentially the same thing as saying "you can never get this." Combats take much longer at epic levels, so you get in relatively fewer kills per session, and in my experience, the fact that epic adventures take sooooo much longer to write means that you get fewer sessions per year.
 

I don't really understand why point buy is relevant to the topic at hand. Point buy guarantees "average" adventurers, and the whole "epic feats require X" are for EPIC characters, not "average" ones. Even with point buy, characters can qualify for epic feats without magic stat boosting items, so I don't really see that whole line of arguement as being particularly valid.
 

Twowolves said:
I don't really understand why point buy is relevant to the topic at hand. Point buy guarantees "average" adventurers, and the whole "epic feats require X" are for EPIC characters, not "average" ones. Even with point buy, characters can qualify for epic feats without magic stat boosting items, so I don't really see that whole line of arguement as being particularly valid.
Point Buy is relevant because that's how many (if not most) of the characters in question begin, so it's the starting off point in any general discussion of how to get abilities high enough for epic feats.
 

Twowolves said:
I don't really understand why point buy is relevant to the topic at hand. Point buy guarantees "average" adventurers, and the whole "epic feats require X" are for EPIC characters, not "average" ones. Even with point buy, characters can qualify for epic feats without magic stat boosting items, so I don't really see that whole line of arguement as being particularly valid.

Point buy is relevant because that's the baseline the designers use for game balance.
 

IanB said:
Point buy is relevant because that's the baseline the designers use for game balance.

Even so, your previous example shows that it's not even remotely impossible to have a 25+ in a stat without magic items. The only really iffy epic feat mentioned is the Incite Rage, which requires a 25 in Charisma, and everyone bemoans the sub-optimal route a barbarian would have to go to take it. This completely ignores the idea that someone gunning for this feat is a LEADER of barbarians, and not the "optimal" smash-everything-rage-on-sight build.

Nothing I've seen seems to persuade me that the designers intended for stat boosting items to be used to qualify for feats, and the epic feat arguements don't change that.
 

Twowolves said:
Even so, your previous example shows that it's not even remotely impossible to have a 25+ in a stat without magic items. The only really iffy epic feat mentioned is the Incite Rage, which requires a 25 in Charisma, and everyone bemoans the sub-optimal route a barbarian would have to go to take it. This completely ignores the idea that someone gunning for this feat is a LEADER of barbarians, and not the "optimal" smash-everything-rage-on-sight build.

Nothing I've seen seems to persuade me that the designers intended for stat boosting items to be used to qualify for feats, and the epic feat arguements don't change that.

So don't allow it in your game? That's certainly your prerogative. I find my own arguments fairly convincing, but you're certainly under no obligation to agree. ;)
 

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