Stat requirements

[Storm Raven]

Nothing I've seen seems to persuade me that the designers intended for stat boosting items to be used to qualify for feats, and the epic feat arguements don't change that.

You mean, other than the fact that the items grant an enhancement bonus to the ability that is not limited in any way save for the one specific exception carved out for the headband of Intellect?

 

[KarinsDad]

You mean, other than the fact that the items grant an enhancement bonus to the ability that is not limited in any way save for the one specific exception carved out for the headband of Intellect?

Precisely.

The only rules we have are discussed in the Headband of Intellect item and the various spells used to create ability score enhancement items (such as Owl's Wisdom).

So, we have a few examples where temporary spells and items do not qualify for permanent abilities (such as skill points or bonus spells), but we have zero examples in the opposite direction.

That to me is a precedence that can be used for the Similar Rules rule.

There is no precedence listed that indicates that permanent abilities can be acquired from temporary spells and items.

 

[Twowolves]

You mean, other than the fact that the items grant an enhancement bonus to the ability that is not limited in any way save for the one specific exception carved out for the headband of Intellect?

Pretty much, yeah. Just like polymorphing into a gnome doesn't qualify you for a gnome-only feat or PrC. Or like how having a Persistant Fox's Cunning won't let you get bonus skill points when you level up, even if you have it up 24/7/365 (or the equivalent in your game world).

I've seen evidence for both sides of the arguement,and nothing I've seen convinces me that stat-boosting items (by definition, a temporary situation) should qualify as a feat prerequisite (a feat being pretty much permenant).

As was stated earlier, I am free to rule either way in my campaign. Barring a definative rules referrence, that's how it'll be in my game.

 

[Twowolves]

Precisely.

The only rules we have are discussed in the Headband of Intellect item and the various spells used to create ability score enhancement items (such as Owl's Wisdom).

So, we have a few examples where temporary spells and items do not qualify for permanent abilities (such as skill points or bonus spells), but we have zero examples in the opposite direction.

That to me is a precedence that can be used for the Similar Rules rule.

There is no precedence listed that indicates that permanent abilities can be acquired from temporary spells and items.

Kinda scary, but I agree with KD 100% (for a change).

 

[Storm Raven]

Precisely.

The only rules we have are discussed in the Headband of Intellect item and the various spells used to create ability score enhancement items (such as Owl's Wisdom).

So, we have a few examples where temporary spells and items do not qualify for permanent abilities (such as skill points or bonus spells), but we have zero examples in the opposite direction.

The items grant bonus spells. The spells do not - the description of the spell carves that out as a specific exception that is not carried forward into the items. The headband does not grant skill points - this is carved out as a specific exception applicable only to the headband.

From the FAQ:

Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points.
Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels.

The "similar rule" rule is misapplied here. The limitations listed are exceptions to what having the increased stat grants. Trying to apply them across the board makes the exceptions swallow the general rule that the items grant an enhancement bonus to the ability score, including the normal benefits of the enhanced score.

 

[Storm Raven]

Pretty much, yeah. Just like polymorphing into a gnome doesn't qualify you for a gnome-only feat or PrC. Or like how having a Persistant Fox's Cunning won't let you get bonus skill points when you level up, even if you have it up 24/7/365 (or the equivalent in your game world).

I've seen evidence for both sides of the arguement,and nothing I've seen convinces me that stat-boosting items (by definition, a temporary situation) should qualify as a feat prerequisite (a feat being pretty much permenant).

As was stated earlier, I am free to rule either way in my campaign. Barring a definative rules referrence, that's how it'll be in my game.

How about the FAQ:

When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage? Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebuke per day?
Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma (such as from eagle’s splendor) would add 2 to his turning check and to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before.

A temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one, unless otherwise stated. There is no exception with respect to qualifying for feats.

 

[Fighter1]

It's only a fix if you think that it's broken and that every character should be able to acquire any of the feats and they should be able to do this by spending money.

If, on the other hand, you think that Epic feats are HUGE feats that should only be acquired with the most careful of preparation and sacrificing of other abilities, then it's not broken as written. It's eventually attainable if that is your goal and you are willing to sacrifice other things to get there.


We live in a society today that many people think that they are entitled. They equate that to their characters and think that any cool combo they can think of, the DM should allow.

I disagree. Epic feats should be Epic. They should not be purchased if you throw enough money and XP at them like lower level abilities.

I salute you! Well said!

 

[Dimwhit]

I realize it's often futile, but has anyone actually emailed Wizards about this? We should have a few people ask and see what kind of responses we get.

 

[Storm Raven]

I realize it's often futile, but has anyone actually emailed Wizards about this? We should have a few people ask and see what kind of responses we get.

They seem to have already answered the question in the FAQ.

 

[Fighter1]

I don't know about anyone else, but I see Epic feats as feats that should only be acquired by characters of Epic level. It shouldn't be any more difficult for an Epic character to obtain an Epic feat than it is for a non-epic character to obtain a non-epic feat.

True - very true. The only thing I see about Epic feats is (as many otehrs already stated and the thread title indicates) some of the stats are sort of nuts; it is almost like at epic levels the game forces one to stick entriely to the specific class type feats such as WF for fighters, Charisma based stuff for Paly's & Sorc. etc. Epic feats leave little room to move outside of one's main dicipline.

But then again it is your game; lower the stat requirements; maybe then increase the Skill or feat requirements...