Stat requirements

[KarinsDad]

And? You aren't making any kind of argument here other than to say that everything is temporary except (apparently) for skill points and feats. That makes no sense.

Skills and feats are special abilities.

If you lose your Int bonus due to a poison, you do not lose the skill ranks that you already have no matter how many Int points you lose. You might lose from your total on a given skill, but you do not lose the skill ranks.

You do not lose your feats, but you may lose your abililty to use your feats.

Feats are not unique either. You aren't making a coherent argument here.

Let's use the word "individualized" as opposed to unique.

Everybody gets hit points.

Everybody gets BAB.

Everybody does not get the Open Locks skill or the Craft Wondrous Items feat.


Unlike many other aspects of the game, we are not talking about what you get as bonuses due to ability scores. We are talking about what you qualify to do because you have a given ability score.

Using the Similar Rule rule to discuss the bonuses acquired by the item is comparing apples and oranges. Using the Similar Rule rule to discuss your qualifications is closer to comparing apples and apples.


This is no different than level or spells castable as prerequisites. Would you allow a magical item that boosts your level or adds higher level spells which you cannot normally cast as a prerequisite for a feat or for a prestige class?

For example, a Minor Ring of Spell Storing:

Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast.

If you have an x level arcane spell in this Ring and are wearing it, do you qualify as an "can cast arcane spells of level x" for feats and prestige classes?

If not, why would you do the same for ability score enhancement items?

 

[Storm Raven]

Let's use the word "individualized" as opposed to unique.

Everybody gets hit points.

Everybody gets BAB.

Everybody gets feats. Your argument falls apart when subjected to any kind of analysis.

Unlike many other aspects of the game, we are not talking about what you get as bonuses due to ability scores. We are talking about what you qualify to do because you have a given ability score.

The rule is that an item that increases a stat gives you all the benefits of the stat except where specifically excluded. Skill points are specifically excluded. Nothing else is. Your argument collapses.

 

[KarinsDad]

The rule is that an item that increases a stat gives you all the benefits of the stat except where specifically excluded. Skill points are specifically excluded. Nothing else is. Your argument collapses.

I noticed that you totally avoided the Ring of Minor Spell Storing example.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I noticed that you totally avoided the Ring of Minor Spell Storing example.

Hmmm.

He's still spoiling for a fight after his I Hate Christmas thread was locked. As evidenced here, he's not even debating, he's just ridiculing your arguments.

 

[Scion]

As evidenced here, he's not even debating, he's just ridiculing your arguments.

Likely because karinsdad isnt really making many rules arguements.. there is a lot of noise but very little substance. Perhaps if karinsdad would back up his points with more rules it would be better.

As for the ring though, its text in the srd is a little contradictory, does anyone have the actual book on hand?

It says both 'wearer can cast' and 'activation time for the ring'.

If the wearer can cast the spells out of the ring then the wearer is casting the spells, which would mean that he would qualify for whatever is asking him to do so (it isnt any different between a feat, prc, or random portal in the world he is trying to walk though).

If instead it is an activation then the wearer isnt casting and so he does not qualify as casting, because he isnt.

 

[Storm Raven]

I noticed that you totally avoided the Ring of Minor Spell Storing example.

I didn't, I was just looking at the item.

It doesn't work. You don't gain a caster level with the ring. You don't actually gain the ability to cast the spell any more than using a potion gives you the ability to cast a spell. It merely stores the spell, and is command activated to boot. The stat enhancing items are use activated, making them radically different from a ring of spell storing. If the item said "you gain an enhancement bonus to your casting ability that allows you to cast X extra spells" then you would have an analogy that works. But you don't.

The stat enhancing items say "when in a character’s possession, it adds a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to her [specified ability] score." The only listed limitation to this increase is the headband of Intelligence. There is no limitation of any kind listed for any other consequence of an increased ability score. If there was intended to be a limitation for feats, then that would be included. It is not. Therefore, your argument is merely an attempt to extrapolate an exception into being a general rule, which is an illogical method of rules analysis.

 

[IanB]

For all the back and forth in this thread, there is nothing specific in the rules that disallow it or allow it. We're firmly in "DM's call territory" if you ask me, I don't think they considered the possibility when they wrote the feat rules.

In my game I allow continuous bonuses from items to qualify you for feat prereqs, because otherwise many epic feats are nearly unattainable, especially when using point buy for stat generation. Frankly I don't see it as any different than allowing inherent bonuses, and surely everyone allows those.

 

[steev42]

I've been lurking here for some time, but not many posts. For some reason, I felt like chiming in on this one.

I'll preface this by saying that in my games, I'm pretty lenient. The only requirement that I tend to enforce hard and fast on learning feats/PrCs is level requirements; otherwise, I'm pretty lax about it--if they don't currently have the ability to use it, then they can't.

About the Ring--sure, I'll let them take it. However, one would imagine that in studying for a feat or PrC that required a spell, the spell would have to be cast, thus eliminating it from the ring. Therefore, while they gain the feat or PrC that they desired, they now gain no benefit from it

Also, just a couple of things to think about--
A) I'm a sorceror who has qualified for a feat that requires (Say) Charm Monster. I take the feat, and then at a later level, exchange Charm Monster for a different spell. I no longer require the feat. Are sorceror spell choices temporary?
B) Old age lowers your physical stats. Are you saying that because my Str 13 fighter will lose strength as he ages (to 12, then 10, then 7), he can't take Power Attack? That's a temporary bonus.


Just my thoughts.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the other hand, do you allow a 13th level wizard with a 16 Int to cast fox's cunning and level up to 14th level by taking Archmage (assume the other prerequisites are met)?

Or, can a human wizard polymorph into an elf to gain a level in arcane archer?

Sure.

But according to CW16, as soon as the spell wears off, he loses access to all class features and abilities except hit dice, BAB, and base save bonuses...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

I didn't, I was just looking at the item.

It doesn't work. You don't gain a caster level with the ring. You don't actually gain the ability to cast the spell any more than using a potion gives you the ability to cast a spell. It merely stores the spell, and is command activated to boot. The stat enhancing items are use activated, making them radically different from a ring of spell storing. If the item said "you gain an enhancement bonus to your casting ability that allows you to cast X extra spells" then you would have an analogy that works. But you don't.

Actually, I literally do. The fact that it is activated is irrelevant. The item states that it gives you the ability to cast the spells.

Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.

Spell Storing, Major: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to ten levels of spells.

ARCANE TRICKSTER

tHit Die: d4.
Requirements

To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.

Your argument falls apart.


The problem is with allowing any spell or magic item to qualify for a feat or a prestige class.

The spell or item is not an innate part of the character, it is something in his possession (or currently cast on him).


Ditto for any other special ability which is not "innate". For example, the Alertness feat from a Familiar or a special ability that only occurs when a Druid is in Wildshape. If the Familiar is not nearby (or dead) or the Druid is not in Wildshape, he no longer qualifies. Ditto for non-innate abilities acquired from magic items or spells.