Stupid level question

[Thurbane]

Hello all,

I have what is possibly a dumb question, about the wording of certain level dependant abilities...

Some abilties, especially those of PrCs, have descriptions such as "lasts for 1 round per level of the character". Does this mean only to count the level in the specific PrC that grants the ability, or for the character's total level?

For example, the Loremaster:

Lore: At 2nd level, a loremaster gains the ability to know legends or information regarding various topics, just as a bard can with bardic knowledge. The loremaster adds her level and her Intelligence modifier to the lore check, which functions otherwise exactly like a bardic knowledge check.

Some are quite specific, while others are more general. Does the exact wording matter, or should it be assumed that the ability only counts the specific class in question unless it specifically says "total character levels".

 

[Cbas_10]

Hello all,

I have what is possibly a dumb question, about the wording of certain level dependant abilities...

Some abilties, especially those of PrCs, have descriptions such as "lasts for 1 round per level of the character". Does this mean only to count the level in the specific PrC that grants the ability, or for the character's total level?

Some are quite specific, while others are more general. Does the exact wording matter, or should it be assumed that the ability only counts the specific class in question unless it specifically says "total character levels".

Not a dumb question...it can be confusing sometimes.

I'm not sure of an exact page quote, but in general, assume that a class's power refers to that class level. Most of the time, things are measured in a particualr class level; I've only rarely seen instances that count a total character level. In those cases, it is specifically spelled out as such.

 

[MithrasRahl]

I had this same question when we added some levels of Combat Medic to our Shugenja, and the answer was pretty self-evident, what with the ridiculous power of the PrC if it was total character levels

 

[Thurbane]

OK, here's a specific example:

Damage Bonus (Ex): A dragonslayer gains a bonus on weapon damage rolls against dragons equal to his class level.

...underlining mine.

I'm sorry, but this is ambiguous. While I would assume that it means "equal to his Dragonslayer class level", the wording is such that it could be argued it means his total character level.

 

[Khuxan]

I'm sorry, but this is ambiguous. While I would assume that it means "equal to his Dragonslayer class level", the wording is such that it could be argued it means his total character level.

'Class level' always means "total levels in the class this ability comes from". A fifth-level dragonslayer would gain +5 on damage rolls.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm sorry, but this is ambiguous. While I would assume that it means "equal to his Dragonslayer class level", the wording is such that it could be argued it means his total character level.

It could, but since it is from a class feature from that specific class, only the class level of said class is applied.

There is a case where a class feature uses character level for its benefit, as in the case of Oriental Adventures Samurai class and the Ancestral Daisho.

 

[Thurbane]

Khuxan, Reg - while I completely agree with your reasoning and would enforce such in my own games, is there anywhere in the rules that this is implicitly spelled out?

Compare the following two examples:

Damage Bonus (Ex): A dragonslayer gains a bonus on weapon damage rolls against dragons equal to his class level.

Abjurant Armor (Su): Every time that you cast an abjuration that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on mage armor, shield and similar spells instead of actual armor.

...there is a definite difference in the wording of these two abilties.

 

[irdeggman]

OK, here's a specific example:

...underlining mine.

I'm sorry, but this is ambiguous. While I would assume that it means "equal to his Dragonslayer class level", the wording is such that it could be argued it means his total character level.

And you would be correct in your assumption, unless there is text somewhere indicating otherwise. The base rule (from the PHB and reproduced in the DMG just prioir to the prestige class section) is:

From PHB (Glossary):

level: A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and spell level.

caster level: A measure of the power with which a spellcaster casts a spell. Generally, a spell’s caster level is the spellcaster’s class level.

character level: A character’s total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

class level: A character’s level in a single class. Class features generally depend on class level rather than character level.

If it was to mean "all class levels" it would state "character level". If it meant to include LA it would state ECL, although sometimes (all too frequently) the terms character level and ECL are used interchangeably - but the general rule for ECL (instead of character level) applies unless specified otherwise.


From the FAQ (Sage Advice0:

Okay, I’m confused by the current alphabet soup of abbreviations dealing with exactly how tough a monster or a character is. What are character level, class level, EL, ECL, and CR? How do they relate to each other? Are they interchangeable? If not, what are they used for?

The terms are not interchangeable. You can find definitions of most of these terms in the Player’s Handbook glossary or in Savage Species, but here’s an overview.

Class Level: The total number of levels you have in a particular class. A 5th-level fighter has 5 class levels in fighter. A 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard has 5 class levels in fighter and 5 class levels in wizard. Class level affects so many things it would be tedious to list them all in detail. The most important include number of Hit Dice (1 per class level), base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and number of skill points, all as shown in the description for the class. If a class gives you bonus feats, it’s your class level that determines when you get them.

In addition, most level-based variables for a class feature depend on your class level, as does any level-based variable for a spell you cast as a member of that class. Powers from clerical domains are class features, and any level-based variables they have depend on your level in the class that gives you access to the domain.

Character Level: The total number of class levels you have in all your classes, plus any racial Hit Dice you have. A human 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard has 10 character levels. An ogre 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard has 14 character levels (because it has 4 racial Hit Dice). Character levels determine when you gain feats and ability score increases (see Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player’s Handbook). Any feat you get by virtue of your character level is in addition to any bonus feats from your class levels.

In addition, your character level determines how much experience you earn when you defeat a foe and how many experience points you need to gain your next class level.

Effective Character Level (ECL): Effective character level is character level plus the level adjustment for the character’s race. Races that are more powerful than the standard races in the Player’s Handbook have level adjustments to help promote some equity among the player characters in a campaign, and to help DMs decide how much danger a party containing members of those races can handle. For example, a drow has a level adjustment of +2. Many people (and even one or two rulebooks) say “ECL” when they really mean “level adjustment.”

Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species. Use the actual character level for everything else.

Now in the case of the lore master the "context" must be looked at. This is not a "rule" based issue but a language one and looking for the correct "rule" to apply.

 

[Thurbane]

Thanks irdeggman, that definition of class level vs. character level is exactly what I was looking for.

 

[werk]

Compare the following two examples:

...there is a definite difference in the wording of these two abilties.

The difference is the pronouns or voice or whatever it's called, maybe a grammar nazi can help me out here... The first example is third person, the second example is second person.

The first one says "A dragonslayer gains a bonus on weapon damage rolls against dragons equal to his class level."

The class level isn't defined because it is an exclusive statement from the start. His = Dragonslayer.

The second says "Every time that you cast an abjuration that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. "

Since it wasn't initially defined, they had to specify at a different point in the statement. You=Abjurant champion.

These are worded very differently, (or exactly reversed) but I think they effectively say the same thing, just using different structure. I don't see any funny business there...just the same thing written differently in English.