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D&D 5E Tasha's and optimization

I mean, this is how you feel. But I don't think it is inherently more logical to favour advantage given by ASIs over one given by traits or vice versa. I'm sure different people see these things differently.
Oh, I hope I wasn't implying it's necessarily logical. And it's true different people see things differently; I'm mainly coming from an approach I've seen in games, where chance to hit tends to be much higher than default, and missing is itself a huge punishment. It does colour one's perspectives - which is why I've placed the emphasis here.
I am not sure I understood it correctly, but to me it seemed a very convoluted process of jumping trough hoops, but the end result basically is that everyone gets whatever scores wherever they want. I can't say I see the appeal... Like under this system can a halfling get the same starting strength score than a goliath? If they can, it it's not working for me, regardless of how exactly that result was achieved.
Fair enough if it doesn't, but I've seen others who I think have the same general point of view reply positively. I will note I don't see debate about it in the Pathfinder 2e community, and while that is much smaller than 5e, it's still a large amount of players (many of which are from the PF1e days). I feel it's less about jumping through hopes and more so providing different ways to emphasis general population trends for different ancestories while still allowing a lot of degree of control (just with drawbacks for choosing that path).
 

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I'll just say, that 16-8 is 8 > 5, that I think I did not argue that str does more damage and that the str char should actually be good in stealth. They have their str in athletics and str feats.
If in your games there is always a rogue for athletics check, then of course, you take away pressure, but that is not always the case in our games.

Otherwise I'll drop the issue, because it is moot to discuss further.
We probably play the game differently.
What I originally responded to had nothing to do with skills or damage. It was claimed that Dex-based melee characters need to pump dexterity to keep up in terms of AC. That is just plain 100% false. With a 14 Dex you are 1 point behind the maximum you can get with a high strength melee build and any dexterity at all above 14 is irrelevant to AC. As long as you have at least a 14 you stay 1 point (and only 1 point) behind in AC from level 1 to level 20.

The rest of this discussion and going into skills, encumbrance etc is window dressing designed to obfuscate that one salient point.
 
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OP here. While these four pages have been interesting, can someone answer my questions? In case you have all forgotten:

1) How have the changes in TCOE your race choices?
2) What races have gained/lost in optimization?
3) Which races are now better for which classes? For example, are Tortles now the best wizards?

If you do not want to discuss this please take yourselves elsewhere.

Thanks.
 

OP here. While these four pages have been interesting, can someone answer my questions? In case you have all forgotten:

1) How have the changes in TCOE your race choices?
2) What races have gained/lost in optimization?
3) Which races are now better for which classes? For example, are Tortles now the best wizards?

If you do not want to discuss this please take yourselves elsewhere.

Thanks.

We aren't using the Tasha's variant rules on race ASI - but then again our group is not tied to optimizing the "prime requisite" of every class. IMO, 5e is forgiving - I'm with those of the opinion that 5% (+1) makes very little noticeable difference in actual game play.

That said, I feel the other attributes/abilities of a race are far more important for my choice (when I'm a player) that ASI when creating a character.

Sorry if this is a non-answer for your premise, but it's the real scoop for our table at least.

I am genuinely curious to hear how other tables have fared with these rules, though. I appreciate you asking the questions.
 


1) How have the changes in TCOE [affected] your race choices?
They've certainly opened them up a lot more. Now I start with race and determine which class I want to play based off of the character concept and minor mechanical synergies.
2) What races have gained/lost in optimization?
Almost all races, as a baseline, are equally good for every class as every other race. The few outliers to this generalization are the Half-Elves and Mountain Dwarves, as well as the classes that have certain mechanical synergies with certain races (such as the Hexblood or Fairy with spellcasting classes, and the new Dragonborn with classes/subclasses that have Extra Attack).
3) Which races are now better for which classes? For example, are Tortles now the best wizards?
This is a bit difficult and will be long, but I'll go down every single pre-Tasha's race/subrace (starting with PHB races and non-PHB subraces for those races) that are now better at certain classes than they before (ignoring Dragonborn, as their new versions are designed around the current design philosophy for races).

Base Race​

The main base race of the Dwarf doesn't gain a ton from TCoE, as Constitution was always useful for everybody, but if you really want to move that +2 CON to something else, you can. Dwarven Resilience is also useful for anyone, so it will benefit you no-matter the class you take. Dwarven Combat Proficiency combined with Tasha's Customize your Origin feature will allow you to swap out your weapon proficiencies for other weapon proficiencies if you really want them, which really only would be beneficial if you're choosing a Fullcasting class that isn't the Cleric, but the ability to swap them out for Tool proficiencies (including vehicles, game sets, artisan's tools, and musical instruments) is useful for anyone, if a little cheesy. If you're an Artificer, at level 1 you can start with 8 tool proficiencies just from your race and class, and that can go up to 10 tool proficiencies depending on your background, too. If you're a Mountain Dwarf, you can even swap out your Armor Proficiencies for Tool Proficiencies to get 12 Tool Proficiencies at level 1. This isn't exactly OP mechanically, but it is a bit ridiculous, especially when your DM asks you what tools you're proficient in in-game, and you list a dozen or so tools. Customize Your Origin also lets you be a Dwarf that doesn't speak Dwarvish, if you really want to do that.

Hill Dwarf​

This subrace is now equally beneficial for every class in the game, as you can switch around that +1 to Wisdom for any Ability Score bonus you want. If you want to be a super beefy Sorcerer, be a Hill Dwarf Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, so you can get a +2 HP per level starting at level 1 (taking the Tough feat if you want to be even beefier, if your DM allows a free feat at level 1), and choose any Draconic Origin other than Green Dragon (as that would double up on poison resistance if you use the Elemental Affinity's resistance feature), and you can also have a 16 in both your Constitution and Charisma Scores! That's the main synergy that I can think of here, but I'm sure there are others.

Mountain Dwarf​

This one has been talked about a bunch, but basically, if you take this race and use the Customize Your Origin feature, you can be any class and have a +2 to two different Ability Scores of your choice at level one. This is extremely useful for everybody, and the Medium Armor proficiency is especially useful if you're a Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard. If you're not one of those four classes, absolutely no problem! Just swap out your racial Armor Proficiencies for any Tool proficiency of your choice.

Duergar (Gray Dwarf)​

This race is fine for any class so long as you're fine with Sunlight Sensitivity. It could be quite fun if you're a Rune Knight, as you can stack Giant's Might with Enlarge, so you can be Huge at level 3. It's not OP mechanically, but is still a really cool image and even cooler character concept (maybe your Duergar learned Rune Magic from Stone Giants and was cast from Duergar society for it). This race is even better if your DM allows for you to cast the racial spells with any existing spell slots that you may have, as the newer spellcasting races are allowed to do (Fairy, Hexblood, UA Owlin, etc).

Mark of Warding Dwarf​

The main synergy that I've seen using this race post-Tasha's is being a Clockwork Sorcerer and swapping out Alarm for Armor of Agathys, and then stacking Bastion of Law with it (effectively allowing you to take more hits from enemies while keeping the temporary hit points from Armor of Agathys, thus allowing you to deal more damage with Armor of Agathys than originally intended). It also synergizes well with any spellcasting class (including half-casters like the Artificer, Paladin, and Ranger), but that's the main combo I've heard of. Some people even multiclass with the Abjuration Wizard in order to abuse Armor of Agathys even more, but that does make you a bit MAD.

Base Race​

Not much changes here. If you don't want Perception for some reason, you can switch it out for any skill that you want. If you don't want to speak Elvish, you can speak any other race that you want. If you want a +2 bonus to any non-DEX Ability Score, you can now do that. Nothing sticks out for the base race, it's now just fine for any class that you want to play as a hundreds-year-old, charm-resistant, non-sleeping person with Darkvision. It's equally good for basically every class/subclass (although Oath of Devotion Paladins after level 7 will be annoyed by having a racial feature becoming completely useless by a subclass ability).

High Elf​

You don't want Elven Weapon Proficiency? Switch the weapons for any other weapon or tool proficiency that you want. Don't want to take a +1 bonus to Intelligence? Switch it out for any other ability score.

If you want to make the absolute most out of the free Wizard Cantrip, be any non-Arcane Trickster Rogue and take either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. So long as you are a Melee Rogue (so Swashbuckler or Inquisitive are really good choices), you just straight up get a damage boost over what other Rogues will be doing, and the damage scales. If you take Booming Blade, go up to an enemy that you can Sneak Attack and isn't near any of your allies, attack them, and then Disengage and move away from them. If they try to move towards you to attack, they take the damage from Booming Blade. If they stay there and don't have any ranged attacks, they're wasting their turn.

Green-Flame Blade users are best for situations where the person you're attacking has another enemy within 5 feet of them, but that enemy is also your enemy. This isn't very common, but is nice when you can get it to set off (if you're built completely around punishing two people with one attack like this, be a Phantom Rogue to stack GFB's extra fire damage with Wails from the Grave, which lets you deal 1/2 Sneak Attack necrotic damage + Spellcasting ability modifier fire damage, scaling to 4d8+Spellcasting ability modifier fire damage at level 17). It's a niche combo, but it's solid mechanically and cool.

Wood Elf​

Anyone that wants a 35 foot walking speed, ability to hide while lightly obscured by natural phenomena, and the ability to switch out Elven Weapon Training benefits from this race. So, mostly Monks, Rogues, and Rangers, as was normal with this race, but also now Barbarians for the increased walking speed, and anyone else that benefits from those fairly niche abilities. So, the class-combos that used to be the most optimal with this subrace still are, but they're effective as anything else, too.

Drow (Dark Elf)​

As with the Duergar, this race is now good for anyone, so long as you're fine with Sunlight Sensitivity. A thematic combo that I've seen frequently post-Tasha's that makes use of the Customize Your Origin feature is the Dark Elf Twilight Cleric of Eilistraee (which grants access to the Darkness and Fairie Fire spells for free), but that's more of a flavor combination more than an optimization one. This race gets better for spellcasters if your DM allows you to cast the innate spells with your Spell Slots, as the new spellcasting races do. And, as with the Wood and High Elf, Drow Weapon Training can benefit anyone if they switch out their redundant weapon proficiencies (if the class gets proficiency in simple and martial weapons) for proficiency with tools.

Eladrin​

As with every other race and subrace in the game, you can now change your racial +1 to Charisma to any other ASI of your choice. Additionally, Fey Step is great for if you want to be able to teleport without casting Misty Step. So, an Eladrin Barbarian can teleport 1/short rest while raging, and get an additional effect. This thematically vibes well with the Storm Herald subclass, so you could be a Winter Eladrin Tundra-Storm Herald Barbarian that is resistant to cold damage, is surrounded in a mini-blizzard that protects them and their allies while raging, can freeze water that they touch, and teleport to scare enemies. Desert-Storm Heralds with Summer Eladrin allows you to have an aura of fire around you that damages enemies, gives your resistance to fire damage, lets you set objects on fire with your touch, and burn people by teleporting. It's not super effective mechanically, especially with having to give up activating your Storm Aura in order to teleport, but it is very cool thematically and would be a fun character to play.

Sea Elf​

If you want to be a non-Triton version of Aquaman or Percy Jackson, this is the way to do it. Any class works for this, so long as you want to be functional in aquatic environments as your main draw to this subrace. However, aquatic subclasses will probably have many redundant features with your racial ones (like the Fathomless Warlock, a bit of the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, some of the Storm Herald Barbarian, etc). There's not many features to synergize here, but it's a good subrace for anyone that wants to be aquatic and still functional on land-based campaigns (unlike Grung and Locathah). The best synergy I can think of is a thematic one that's slightly more effective than it was before TCoE, which is an Aquatic-themed Moon Druid that can communicate with aquatic animals, get a swimming speed for any of their Wild Shapes, and eventually be able to turn into a Water Elemental as a way of completely embodying the sea.

Shadar-Kai​

Like the Eladrin, this subrace is useful for classes that want to teleport as a bonus action without casting a spell. So, Barbarians and spellcasters that cast a spell with their action and teleport as a bonus action. Thematically, the best subclasses for these are Zealot Barbarians (taking necrotic for your extra damage), Spirit/Whisper Bards, Shadow Sorcerers, Undead Warlocks, and Necromancy/Abjuration Wizards. It's also a good option for Shadow Monks, getting more teleportation abilities and damage resistance after you do at level 3.

Pallid Elf​

This subrace, like the Drow and Duergar, is now beneficial to all classes that want its innate spellcasting (again, DMs that allow Hexbloods and Fairies, will probably allow spellcasting classes to use their spell slots to cast its innate spells), as well as classes that focus on Wisdom (Druids, Clerics, Rangers). However, even for classes that don't focus on Wisdom, perma-advantage on Investigation and Insight (and a +5 to Passive Insight and Investigation), and innate spellcasting for the Light cantrip at level 1 and Sleep and Invisibility at later levels is nothing to sneeze at, especially for spellcasting classes that don't already have those spells on their spell lists.

Mark of Shadow Elf​

Like all Dragonmarked races/subraces, this race is most effective for spellcasting classes/subclasses that don't already have their innate spells/expanded spell list on their spell lists. This subrace was, and still is, most effective for Rogues, Bards, and Warlocks, but is also useful for Rangers, Infiltrator-Armorer Artificers, and most other spellcasting class options.

Base Race​

As with the other races, the base gnome race is now just about equal in effectiveness in nearly every class/party role that they could possibly take. However, being able to switch out their Intelligence bonus (which still tends to be a dump stat for most 5e characters) opens up this race's niche even more than most other races. Gnomish Cunning is also effective for basically everyone, so you can be a Gnome of any class and still benefit from it. There's not many mechanical synergies here, but you're able to be anything you want and be effective (unless you want to wield heavy weapons).

Forest Gnome​

Minor Illusion is good for anyone, even barbarians, because it's not really a combat spell. Speak with Small Beast is also useful for anyone, even if it is fairly situational. However, you can be a Sword/Axe/Warhammer-and-Shield Gnomish Wild Magic/Totem Warrior Barbarian that can speak with wild animals and create illusions to fool your enemies (or even animals if you want to play pranks on them), and be effective in combat. These features can also be useful for Gnomish Rangers, Druids, Nature Clerics, and even Bards.

Rock Gnome​

If you use Customize Your Origin, you can replace Tinker's Tools proficiency with any other tool proficiency, but you would probably lose all of the Tinker feature if you do so. Artificer's Lore is useful for anyone, but is super situational. If you want to be a non-stereotypical gnome, don't be a Rock Gnome. This subrace relies on those stereotypes, and will likely be less effective when played against type than most other Gnome subraces would.

Deep Gnome​

Superior Darkvision without Sunlight Sensitivity? Yes, please! Stone Camouflage is extremely situational, but the racial feat for Svirfneblin is extremely good (especially if you're an Abjuration Wizard that spams Nondetection to completely heal your Abjurer's Ward, but that was a good combo before TCoE). This race would be extremely good for a Gloomstalker Ranger in an Underdark campaign, as you'd have permanent advantage on stealth in rocky areas of the Underdark (so, basically all of it), and their subrace feat is also good in the Underdark.

Mark of Scribing Gnome​

As with every other Dragonmarked Race, this subrace is most effective with spellcasters that don't normally get access to the spells that it grants. Based on a tiny bit of looking, it seems that the main classes that don't get these spells are the Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, and Sorcerer. A Divine Soul Sorcerer could be cool for this subrace, reflavoring your spells as having come from your Dragonmark growing slowly into a Siberys Dragonmark.

Base Race​

Like the Mountain Dwarf, the PHB Half-Elf is also quite infamous for being a bit abusable while using the Customize your Origin option from TCoE, as you can get a +2 bonus to any ability score of your choice and +1 to two other ability scores of your choice by using this rule. Two free skills, Fey Ancestry, Darkvision, and two extra languages is useful for everybody. Anything is free game here.

SCAG Alternative Options​

Aquatic Half-Elves, just like the Sea Elf, are good for anyone that wants to be able to have a swimming speed. Half-Drow are basically superior to full-Drow, as you get Drow Spellcasting without having Sunlight Sensitivity. High Half-Elves that take Cantrip can also be paired with Melee Rogues in order to deal more damage by using Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade. Wood Half-Elves also could be worth taking if you want to have a 35 foot walking speed and overall +4 Racial ASI for your race-class combo.

Mark of Detection​

As with all other Dragonmarked Races, this is best for spellcasting classes. I'm not sure exactly which classes/subclasses are most effective here . . . maybe a Chef Artificer or Psionic-flavored Ranger? Or a Great Old One Warlock.

Mark of Storm​

Fits well with Four-Elements Monks, but isn't particularly mechanically effective with it. Would fit very well thematically with a Storm Sorcerer, Tempest Cleric, or Fathomless Warlock, and be fairly mechanically effective.

Base Race​

This race is now mechanically effective for basically every class. You can swap out the Strength bonus, the Intimidation proficiency, and still get the benefit of Relentless Endurance, Savage Attacks, and Darkvision.

Mark of Finding Orc​

Innate Hunter's Mark is really good for people basically anyone that makes weapon attack, but especially Monks and Fighters. Basically anything works with this, but Battle Smith Artificer jumps to mind for a combo that would be benefitted a lot from its spells and features.

Base Race​

Lucky, Brave, and Halfling Nimbleness are quite useful for anyone (but Brave gets redundant for Paladins beyond level 6). If you want to be as lucky as possible, be a Halfling Chronurgist/Divination Wizard with the Lucky feat.

Ghostwise Halfling​

Ghostwise Halfling Moon Druid jumps to mind as a good combo, as you can make use of the racial telepathy while Wild Shaped. However, the telepathy will be redundant for Great Old One Warlocks and other subclasses that grant telepathy.

Lightfoot Halfling​

Still best for rogues, so not much of a change.

Lotusden Halfling​

Useful for everybody, except Barbarians.

Stout Halfling​

Also useful for everybody, as poison resistance is almost always useful.

Mark of Healing Halfling​

These make quite good Artificers, Druids, Rangers, and even Paladins. Fits the theme of Redemption Paladins quite well, actually. A Wizard could even make use of these spells, if you want to be a true "jack of all trades" caster.

Mark of Hospitality Halfling​

Also good as Artificers, but also Life Clerics, Druids, Watcher/Ancients Paladins, Warlocks, and Wizards.

Base Race​

Fire Resistance, Darkvision, and Infernal Legacy are all quite good for basically everyone. Notably good for classes that don't normally get these spells, but also good for Warlocks, as they get very few spell slots and this allows for them to get additional castings of common warlock spells. The same applies to all of the subraces, too, so I'm not going to cover them.
 

How have the rules in Tasha's changed racial optimization? What are the best races for different classes under the new rules? For example, I would argue that Tortles are now the best race for wizards and warlocks?

I am interested in what the community thinks. Thanks.

I'm not sure how it stacks up as a build, but thematically I'm keen to make a Fire Genasi / Wild fire Druid at some point.
Feats - Elemental Adept : fire / Flames of Phlegethos (if you're DM lets you take it as a Genasi) are both pretty handy.
 

What I originally responded to had nothing to do with skills or damage. It was claimed that Dex-based melee characters need to pump dexterity to keep up in terms of AC. That is just plain 100% false. With a 14 Dex you are 1 point behind the maximum you can get with a high strength melee build and any dexterity at all above 14 is irrelevant to AC. As long as you have at least a 14 you stay 1 point (and only 1 point) behind in AC from level 1 to level 20.

The rest of this discussion and going into skills, encumbrance etc is window dressing designed to obfuscate that one salient point.

Ok. I agree to the last paragraph. And if you don't dump str to 10 and accept disadvantage on stealth, then your first paragraph is also true.
We also do agree, that if you are vhuman, moderate armor mastery solves the stealth and AC gap problem.
I do hover think that at a later point, moderately armored feels a bit like a feat tax (although it practically allows you to be armored as a heavy armor user and stealthy as a light armor user).
As strength character you are now a feat ahead which I do like.

So. To find a good end to this discussion,
I think both ways EQUALLY viable filling different niches.

Edit: I addmit that in the beginning I did not really think about medium armor, although my rogue/bard/sorcerer actually uses it right now, since he has only 14 dex. I did however notice that I only have 11 str before I found my gauntlets of ogre power ;)
 
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Then Tasha's does nothing other than preclude different races than before.
I don't understand you statement. I'm not being difficult here, I really don't get what you're trying to say. Would you mind expanding on your thoughts a little for me?
 

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