D&D 5E Tasha's Mind Sliver and Shadow Sorcerer. The most efficient spellcaster?

[Helldritch]

One thing I would like you all to remember is that though you keep your personality by being polymorphed, you also inherit all stats of the creature. You may retain friend of foe notions but tactics and understanding speech is not part of the spell.

Gartakor, the now T-Rex, will not attack Ismalda the sorceress, but tactics and speech are not in his bag of competence any longer. Gartakor the T-Rex will fight one target at a time, headless of positioning and personal safety, might even get in the middle of foes thus preventing AoE spells and effect. Even the mighty Giant Ape is in this category even more so. If wounded badly, our mighty Giant Ape will be prone to act like any ape will do when wounded and near death: It will flee. I would personally allow a wisdom or intelligence check to stay in combat if the tide is obviously in the favor of the character's side but if the save is failed, Gartakor the mighty Giant Ape will flee for its life. He is a Giant Ape after all.

It is this part of the spell that a lot of people often forget. You take on the stats of the creature you are polymorphed into. You keep your personality so you do not attack your friends but that is about it. Do not expect any animal to linger there to get killed unless trained for that or magically bound to do it...

Some might call this DM's Fiat. But my T-Rex, when badly wounded would try to flee. The same with my giant ape. Why would a polymorphed character supposed to take on the characteristic of the beast would not do the same? The personality thing does not mean that the intelligence and wisdom of the character are still there. It just mean that you will not attack your friends. It is, after all, only a 4th level spell...

 

[Mistwell]

The automatic grappling and restrained is alone hard to compete...its insanely good.

It's not automatic. You have to hit first. And once you do, yes your medium or smaller target is grappled and restrained but you also are now having an even harder time attacking twice in a round since you now must only use your bite on that target. And, again, you have a TWO INTELLIGENCE. Any DM who let's you use the same tactics and strategies you used before should be rethinking that - it's your ability to reason.

As for it being "insanely good" it would have been better to use a lower spell slot on Hypnotic Pattern instead, which is far far better than making one target restrained.

 

[Helldritch]

Ahem...
Do not underplay the potential of the Giant Apes or the T-Rexes. These are very strong options but remember that if the stat is there, the character is, for all intent and purpose, the creature. If the creature is known to use some tactics, it will. The giant ape might chew a few times on the grappled target, but if an other opponent starts to attack the Giant Ape, the Ape will throw the grappled one very far and attack (and grapples) the new target and start over again. This is what an animal would do, ignore lesser threat in favor of immediate ones. Having low intel means that you are easily distracted. It might be why my players do not often use intel of wisdom as dump stats...

 

[Umbran]

SO you didn't watch the video it looks like. OK, you keep arguing in bad faith.

It doesn't sound like you want to have a civil discussion though. So...I guess we're done for now. Again, hope things get better for you. And that is not an ad hominem. It's not an attack at all. It's genuine.

Mod Note:

It technically isn't ad hominem, but it certainly is an attack. So, you better turn down the self-righteousness about seven notches, or you can walk it off in some other thread in which you can treat people with respect. Got it? If not, take it to PM.

Anyone else want to act like a jerk? Making mods deal with you on holidays is a great way to get a vacation from the site.

 

[Guest User]

Obviously you need to fight more battles in the most mysterious of all campaign settings, Theorycraftia, where every fight takes place in a large featureless space.

To be fair, Theorycraftia is a large enough place, that it also encompasses campaigns were every fight takes place in 5' wide corridors with 10' tall ceilings.

At some point, turning A PC, a familiar, a summoned creature, a controlled undead zombie, or something else into a scary beast is going to be appropriate.

Rolling up to a negotiation with a T-Rex and a Giant Ape, could engender Advantage on Intimidation checks.

Some might call this DM's Fiat. But my T-Rex, when badly wounded would try to flee

You can end concentration at any time (no action required). PHB 203.

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

The caster of the Polymorph spell can immediately stop concentrating on the spell and Marc Bolan returns to being an axman and singer.

 

[Helldritch]

You can end concentration at any time (no action required). PHB 203.

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

The caster of the Polymorph spell can immediately stop concentrating on the spell and Marc Bolan returns to being an axman and singer.

I fully agree with you. But in our particular case, if you cease to concentrate on the spell, the second T-rex would also disappear. Depending on the level of the adventurers it might be as soon as round two for one of the T-rexes... this means sorcery points and a 4th level spell lost. For 8th level adventurers, this might be a bit much.

While I do not and will not actively counter that play style, it should be worth noting that the more intelligent foes will know about such use of the polymorph spell and will actively try to either force the hand of the caster by concentrating their attacks on him (on the off chance that concentration is lost) or barring that, will use dispel magic and similar tactics. And if these are not available, they will probably concentrate their attacks on one of the T-rexes as downing one foe is always better than splitting your attacks between two or more foes.

In Avernus, you have devils and demons for foes. Any 10 intel outsiders will know. These are immortal beings after all...

 

[Hohige]

It's not automatic. You have to hit first. And once you do, yes your medium or smaller target is grappled and restrained but you also are now having an even harder time attacking twice in a round since you now must only use your bite on that target. And, again, you have a TWO INTELLIGENCE. Any DM who let's you use the same tactics and strategies you used before should be rethinking that - it's your ability to reason.

As for it being "insanely good" it would have been better to use a lower spell slot on Hypnotic Pattern instead, which is far far better than making one target restrained.

...
Its +10 to hit and automatically restrained and grappled. ALL your party has advantage against that creature and The restrained creature has disadvantage.
Its 32 damage.
Two T-Rexes doing It is scary.
The Hound has pack tatics, deals average 10 damage and can knock prone the target (DC 13) and apply disadvantage against Shadow Sorcerer's spells.
The Sorcerer can cast Tidal Wave (enemy has disadvantage) for still more damage and knock prone the target.
Poor target.

The Hound + Careful Hypnotic Pattern/Fear is also a strong option, but Twinned Polymorph + The Hound is really scary.
The Shadow Sorcerer can choose the best tatic for every situation.

 

[Hohige]

Dunno about anyone else, but my PC has fought in plenty of places that simply don't have room, or ceiling space, to fit one t-rex or giant ape, let alone two.

A perfect place for The Hound of Ill omem + Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern.
The Shadow Sorcerer is insanely efficient.

 

[Iry]

but remember that if the stat is there, the character is, for all intent and purpose, the creature. If the creature is known to use some tactics, it will. The giant ape might chew a few times on the grappled target, but if an other opponent starts to attack the Giant Ape, the Ape will throw the grappled one very far and attack (and grapples) the new target and start over again. This is what an animal would do, ignore lesser threat in favor of immediate ones. Having low intel means that you are easily distracted. It might be why my players do not often use intel of wisdom as dump stats...

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

Well, there's no reason you would have the instinctive or socialized behavior. You could certainly feel fear, rage, or sadness... but you're not going to react like a real animal because you've never been the real animal. The low intelligence would be a big hinderance coming up with new ideas or anything but the easiest solution to problems, but you're essentially yourself in a different body. A very stupid self.

 

[Hohige]

Well, there's no reason you would have the instinctive or socialized behavior. You could certainly feel fear, rage, or sadness... but you're not going to react like a real animal because you've never been the real animal. The low intelligence would be a big hinderance coming up with new ideas or anything but the easiest solution to problems, but you're essentially yourself in a different body. A very stupid self.

I couldnt agree more.
A Giant Ape has 7 INT.
Not totally stupid self.

 

[Helldritch]

Well, there's no reason you would have the instinctive or socialized behavior. You could certainly feel fear, rage, or sadness... but you're not going to react like a real animal because you've never been the real animal. The low intelligence would be a big hinderance coming up with new ideas or anything but the easiest solution to problems, but you're essentially yourself in a different body. A very stupid self.

You keep your personality. Nothing else. This is to ensure that you do not attack your friends. Nothing more. You are not the tactical person you are normally. In fact, at this level of intelligence, if you did not retain your personality, you would/should attack even your friends if they anger you. Think of the hulk but your reasoning capacity is even more limited. And the hulk comes close enough to and even attacks friends without a second thought. It takes a lot of reasoning to calm him.

A lot of people downplay the low stats that polymorph confers. And I mean a whole bunch of people do it. It is not shape change in any way.

 

[Helldritch]

I couldnt agree more.
A Giant Ape has 7 INT.
Not totally stupid self.

But you do talk about T-Rexes
2 INT. A more than totally stupid self.
Even at 7 INT, you are far from Stephen Hawkins. You can reason at this level, but only in calm circumstances. In a fight, it will be working at instinctual level immediately. But the Ape is much better at wis save than the T-Rex, that is for sure.

Do not mistake my position. I do believe that this spell is very very powerful and useful. But its drawbacks are there for a reason. If you downplay the drawbacks, the spell is much more powerful than it should actually be.

 

[BacchusNL]

But you do talk about T-Rexes
2 INT. A more than totally stupid self.
Even at 7 INT, you are far from Stephen Hawkins. You can reason at this level, but only in calm circumstances. In a fight, it will be working at instinctual level immediately. But the Ape is much better at wis save than the T-Rex, that is for sure.

Do not mistake my position. I do believe that this spell is very very powerful and useful. But its drawbacks are there for a reason. If you downplay the drawbacks, the spell is much more powerful than it should actually be.

2 int is the same as your avarage dog but 7 Int is pretty much equal to most barbarians after a night of heavy drinking tbh.

 

[Mistwell]

...
Its +10 to hit and automatically restrained and grappled. ALL your party has advantage against that creature and The restrained creature has disadvantage.
Its 32 damage.
Two T-Rexes doing It is scary.
The Hound has pack tatics, deals average 10 damage and can knock prone the target (DC 13) and apply disadvantage against Shadow Sorcerer's spells.
The Sorcerer can cast Tidal Wave (enemy has disadvantage) for still more damage and knock prone the target.
Poor target.

The Hound + Careful Hypnotic Pattern/Fear is also a strong option, but Twinned Polymorph + The Hound is really scary.
The Shadow Sorcerer can choose the best tatic for every situation.

You keep saying +10 to hit like that's somehow awesome at level 8. It's not. +5 from stat, +3 from proficiency bonus, +2 from archery, you're at +10 standard for an archer by that level if you want to be. And that's without a magic weapon, which by that level you very likely already have if that's your primary thing. Which means you're attacking from range, and through resistance to non-magic items. At no cost to regular resources, just over and over again, multiple attacks in a single round to any targets you want including the same target multiple times.

Not "all your party" has advantage. MOST of your party is actually trying to shoot around a friggen huge T-Rex now. They will almost certainly now be having to deal with the cover you've provided the foe. Possibly now the cover from TWO huge sized T-Rex's. And any area spell is now screwed as well because you're now smack in the middle of the area.

The hound is completely unrelated to polymorph. I like your hound idea. I like your idea to combine it with mind sliver. I think your twin polymorph idea however is very flawed. I think you should try and play with that strategy a few times in a normal game and you will see there are major disadvantages tactically which you're not anticipating.

 

[Hohige]

You keep saying +10 to hit like that's somehow awesome at level 8. It's not. +5 from stat, +3 from proficiency bonus, +2 from archery, you're at +10 standard for an archer by that level if you want to be. And that's without a magic weapon, which by that level you very likely already have if that's your primary thing. Which means you're attacking from range, and through resistance to non-magic items. At no cost to regular resources, just over and over again, multiple attacks in a single round to any targets you want including the same target multiple times.

Not "all your party" has advantage. MOST of your party is actually trying to shoot around a friggen huge T-Rex now. They will almost certainly now be having to deal with the cover you've provided the foe. Possibly now the cover from TWO huge sized T-Rex's. And any area spell is now screwed as well because you're now smack in the middle of the area.

The hound is completely unrelated to polymorph. I like your hound idea. I like your idea to combine it with mind sliver. I think your twin polymorph idea however is very flawed. I think you should try and play with that strategy a few times in a normal game and you will see there are major disadvantages tactically which you're not anticipating.

An average melee attack has +8 to hit. Also, forgot your magical weapon (DM Fiat).
Also, The Hound has pack tatics, 10 damage and knock prone.
The Shadow Sorcerer can Summon multiples Hounds each turn...
Its scary.
Free 10 damage per turn, pack tatics, opportunity attacks, knock prone and disadvantage against Sorcerer spells is Huge, more than one is amazing.
If The enemy is prone, The Polymorped creatures and your allies has advantage.
On real games, The Hound is incredible good and useful.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Based on practical experience and usage, the polymorph friend into ape or t rex is incredibly powerful up until level 10. At level 11, it becomes much less so, largely because that's a new tier and PCs get a lot of extra stuff at that point (extra attack for fighters, 6th level spells, etc). But that's OK, because by then a 4th level slot isn't your big hitter spell any longer anyway. You've got higher level spells, and more of them than you do at 7th or 8th level.

At 11th level, polymorph is still super effective---when used against enemies. In the aforementioned Avernus campaign, I twinned polymorphed 2 fire giants into turtles (one had disadvantage, thanks again hound). Then I promptly put each of them into the bag of devouring.

 

[Iry]

You keep your personality. Nothing else. This is to ensure that you do not attack your friends. Nothing more. You are not the tactical person you are normally. In fact, at this level of intelligence, if you did not retain your personality, you would/should attack even your friends if they anger you. Think of the hulk but your reasoning capacity is even more limited. And the hulk comes close enough to and even attacks friends without a second thought. It takes a lot of reasoning to calm him.

A lot of people downplay the low stats that polymorph confers. And I mean a whole bunch of people do it. It is not shape change in any way.

Low stats are definitely an issue, but keeping your personality means keeping your socialized behavior. Not replacing it with the lifetime experience of an animal, because that's not what the spell does. It's more like downgrading your computer. Some files might go away because the HD is smaller, you can only play simple games because the processor is much slower, etc. But the spell doesn't install new programs.

I personally like to tackle the issue with Animal Handling checks. My players spend downtime casting polymorph on themselves, and learning simple tricks. One character has learned Stop, Kill (2 Int), Carry, Fetch, and Protect (8 Int). They can still get terrified of a painful world they don't understand (Animal Handling to keep them under control), but they know their friends and follow commands.

 

[Mistwell]

An average melee attack has +8 to hit. Also, forgot your magical weapon (DM Fiat).
Also, The Hound has pack tatics, 10 damage and knock prone.
The Shadow Sorcerer can Summon multiples Hounds each turn...
Its scary.
Free 10 damage per turn, pack tatics, opportunity attacks, knock prone and disadvantage against Sorcerer spells is Huge, more than one is amazing.
If The enemy is prone, The Polymorped creatures and your allies has advantage.
On real games, The Hound is incredible good and useful.

Again (because you ignored it) having TWO T-rex's on the battlefield will provide cover to any foe, particularly one you're grappling. You already polymorphed your fighter-types (because you wouldn't want to polymorph your spellcasters unless they were injured) so the remaining PCs likely are trying to cast spells at the guy you're not providing cover to, and possibly blocking line of sight to.

And please, do not try to tell me your spellcaster PCs are wanting to be a T-Rex for 600 rounds every game. Because that's when I know this is white room without having been played in real life.

Just how many melee front liners do you think are in your party if you're going to polymorph two of them and expect there will be more of them running up to attack in melee who are not already polymorphed? Doesn't range combat play a role in your games, and don't you have issues with cover and line of sight in your games when you grapple a foe with two huge creatures?

 

[Helldritch]

An average melee attack has +8 to hit. Also, forgot your magical weapon (DM Fiat).
Also, The Hound has pack tatics, 10 damage and knock prone.
The Shadow Sorcerer can Summon multiples Hounds each turn...
Its scary.
Free 10 damage per turn, pack tatics, opportunity attacks, knock prone and disadvantage against Sorcerer spells is Huge, more than one is amazing.
If The enemy is prone, The Polymorped creatures and your allies has advantage.
On real games, The Hound is incredible good and useful.

Magic items is not DM Fiat. This is expected and this most of them will be acquired through reknown.

Adventurers League Player’s Guide v.10.06APPENDIX 2:
RENOWN
All characters accrue renown based on their level/tier.RENOWN TITLES BY TIERTierTitle1Novice2Adept3Veteran4HeroicRENOWN

BENEFITS
Your character starts a new adventure or chapter, they gain inspiration and one renown benefit associated with their current rank or lower. Renown benefits can’t be sold and are lost at the end of the adventure or hardcover chapter, whichever happens first.

RENOWN BENEFITS BY TITLE
Rank Benefit
Novice: Potion of healing
Adept: Potion of greater healing, a silvered weapon, or 10 pieces of silvered ammunition
Veteran: Potion of superior healing,an adamantine weapon, or 10 pieces of adamantine ammunition
Hero: Potion of supreme healing or a spell scroll valued at 2,500 gp or less (see Buying Potions and Scrolls)

RENOWN MAGIC ITEMS
At Adept and higher rank, your character gain access to basic magic items—specifically bags of holding, +1 weapons, +1 shields, +1 rods of the pact keeper, and +1 wands of the war mage—and can choose as many of them as their Magic Item Limit permits. While they can’t be sold or traded, they can replace and be replaced by other items between sessions.These items are thematically linked to your background. For example, a Folk Hero might be given an old +1 longsword and a +1 shield from a retired adventurer back home, while a Sage may find a +1 wand of the war mage hidden in a library and use an old, dusty bag of holding on their adventures.

And the magic item tier limit is
Tier 1 = 1
Tier 2= 3
Tier 3= 6
Tier 4 = 10.

So either you find your magic items or your patrons/organisation will provide you some. These items are supposed to be given to you or the DM is putting them in addition to what you can find. It is highly unfortunate that this is not written anywhere but in the adventurer's league.

Here is the full link: https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/AL_PGv10_0.pdf

Edit: And notes that this is for RotM. And this document is the usual stuff for each adventure that has been released so far. The items you find are in addition to what a faction will give you or make available to you. Sometimes, 5ed feels a bit like 1ed. You need to look everywhere to find the relevant information that you need.

 

[Helldritch]

Again (because you ignored it) having TWO T-rex's on the battlefield will provide cover to any foe, particularly one you're grappling. You already polymorphed your fighter-types (because you wouldn't want to polymorph your spellcasters unless they were injured) so the remaining PCs likely are trying to cast spells at the guy you're not providing cover to, and possibly blocking line of sight to.

And please, do not try to tell me your spellcaster PCs are wanting to be a T-Rex for 600 rounds every game. Because that's when I know this is white room without having been played in real life.

Just how many melee front liners do you think are in your party if you're going to polymorph two of them and expect there will be more of them running up to attack in melee who are not already polymorphed? Doesn't range combat play a role in your games, and don't you have issues with cover and line of sight in your games when you grapple a foe with two huge creatures?

Not with sharpshooter or spell snipers. All ranged attackers take these don't you know ?