Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[WizarDru]

Again. This board is not the sole source of WoTC information. While we are a good slice and fair representation, this isn't the end all be all of testing or relevant issues. (For instance, DR wasn't a big issue here, but it might have been elsewhere...)

It has had it's share of discussion here...but compared to the burning hate of a thousand white hot suns that is the topic of haste, it hasn't garnered the same level of attention from the general public. But I can attest to there having been several discussions about it here, as I've been in on them.

Some of us were not happy with the existing DR system. As to haste, I suspect quicken spell will be decreased in it's level boost, to make it more attractive.

One should note that WoTC is probably watching these discussions carefully. The releasal of this info is to see whether it floats or sinks...the manuscripts may yet be modified, after seeing the discussion generated here and elsewhere.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Some of us were not happy with the existing DR system. As to haste, I suspect quicken spell will be decreased in it's level boost, to make it more attractive.

.

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A long hard look was taken at meta-magic feats. In the end they are not being changed because the proposal did not have enough time to be play tested and the fix could have been worse than the relatively minor problem it would fix. END Quote


Yes so lets hope those manuscripts aren't finished yet, because some metamagic feats really need a re-write. Quicken is overpriced at +4 spell levels, persistent needs a fix IMO, chain spell needs to be clarified and the damage part of it needs a rewrite, and if I crack my books I probably could go on. I think they need to lok at metamagic feats stacking. and I'm not talking about double empowers, but more the always start from the base spell thing it frequntly creates semi-absurd results.

I'm really disapointed they aren't revising metamagic feats.

 

[WizarDru]

I mean, Haste was argued since first printing, and they never errata'd it? Not through the web or printed in Tome and Blood? I've seen 10,000 times more arguments over Haste and Harm then over Polymorph Other or Wild Shape, yet they seemed worthy of re-printing.

I think you're falling prey to the notion that all of the Playtesters:

• All played the same type of games
• All agreed on the final version of all the rules
• Equally tested all of the rules and mechanics

From what we know of the playtesters (including those who post here), that just wasn't the case. And I would trot out things like Polymorph Other or Shield as examples of why they haven't errata-ed the spell before now. Those two are poster children for the ruling-of-the-month club. I'm still not sure where the final, honest-to-goodness, WoTC-endorsed versions of these spells can be found. (and yes, I know WHERE to find them, I just have no idea which one to trust).

 

[officeronin]

Wizards able to do the same amount of damage as a fighter are UNBALANCED. Dealing out damage is the fighter's main (and arguably only) specialty.

No, it's not. The fighter's big uber-ability is to stand up to combat. High ACs and hitpoints -- he can stand in the line all day. He can swing his sword all day, too.

The wizard has a limited number of rounds that he can be effective before he's casting expeditious retreat -- again, the fighter can keep going. If the wizard is hasted (by the current rules), he's running out of spells even quicker.

The only problem I have with it as it stands is that there is no reason not to cast it in round one, since you can still throw that "other" spell you wanted to cast. If it took effect at the end of the wizard's turn, there would be that element of choice for the wizard.

OfficeRonin

 

[Shalewind]

A long hard look was taken at meta-magic feats. In the end they are not being changed because the proposal did not have enough time to be play tested and the fix could have been worse than the relatively minor problem it would fix.

WoTC is cryptic. This quite can be taken a number of ways, just as any of their release information can. This could refer to one Large proposal in which all of them were undergoing a fundamental change. I still think it highly likely that

A) Quicken might endure a level drop or be tweaked in some way to make it more effective.

and

B) The Sorcerer will be changed to reflect quickened aspects.

I've seen 10,000 times more arguments over Haste and Harm then over Polymorph Other or Wild Shape, yet they seemed worthy of re-printing.

Yes. But let's face it, reprinting any of those doesn't change an integral part of the game. Changing haste does. Which is exactly why, IMO, it was looked at this time around.

THIS CONSPIRACY GOES ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP PEOPLE!

Of course. I'd want to make money too if I were in an industry that is perpetually poor. There is a fine line here and I think they walk the buyer's side more than the greedy one. Then again, I'm an optimist by nature.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

WoTC is cryptic. This quite can be taken a number of ways, just as any of their release information can. This could refer to one Large proposal in which all of them were undergoing a fundamental change. I still think it highly likely that

A) Quicken might endure a level drop or be tweaked in some way to make it more effective.

and

B) The Sorcerer will be changed to reflect quickened aspects.

My hope is that they do at least revise quicken, and how the sor interacts with quicken. Also I hope a few other stand out problwm metamagic feats are looked at, like persistent, which IMO is persistently broken. I's a good point that they may have meant they aren't revising metamagic on the whole, but that tehy may still revise a couple minor things in metamagic.

 

[LokiDR]

Wow, I just read all 3.5 pages of this thread, and my brain hurts.

I just want my lesser-haste to give me a move-equivilant action, so I can pretend to have "spell on the run"

I only believe the current haste is broken because I have abused it. I have never bothered making a broken melee character, so I think this change is good for the game.

And of course, my sole opinion based on limited experience counts for everyone.

 

[Ciaran]

Wizards able to do the same amount of damage as a fighter are UNBALANCED. Dealing out damage is the fighter's main (and arguably only) specialty. Wizards have an amazing, truly stupendous variety of abilities if you take all the spells into account.

If you're an unimaginative player whose only use for a wizard is to make him a mobile artillery platform, then of course they'll end up weak. If you get creative with your spells, you'll find that wizards are still the most powerful class out there.

Let me put another spin on this:

My current wizard character, Martin the Green, is an illusionist with Evocation as his banned school, in a setting where I have very little control over what spells I get. As a result, I didn't get my first damage-inflicting spell until fifth level. And after using flame arrow a few times, I shelved it in favor of slow, on the grounds that slow was so much better that it wasn't worthwhile to prepare anything else in my 3rd level spell slots. So, I'm playing a 6th level wizard who uses no direct damage magics. So I should feel (and be!) totally useless, since I can't dish out damage, right?

Well, no. Sure, the fighter-type PCs may not respect me, but without my magical support, their job would be a lot harder, and their players know it. Non-damaging spells do an awful lot to shift the battlefield in our favor. And then there's all of the utility spells, like comprehend languages, without which we'd be pretty clueless about some crucial elements of our situation, and mending, without which the fighters would probably be naked (the DM has a house rule for armor getting damaged in combat).

And I think, if Martin is this useful even without damaging spells, how effective would he be if he had them? And then, what if his damaging spells overshadowed the damage that the fighters could dish out in a round? Wouldn't that be overkill?

- Eric

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Sorry (Psi)Severed Head, I was taking the piss out of the old-haste-lovers arguments.

I was briefly assuming the role of the ultimate munchkin although in hindsight I should have used a bit more.

For the record I will likely use our house ruled 'extra move equivilent action'. It is still very useful indeed.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

No worries.