Things from my setting

[Beefermatic]

Beefermatic made Elusion instead have a save DC equal to the attacker's ECL (instead of what they roll on the attack roll). Maybe have invulnerability work the same but a fort save instead of a reflex?

I'd like to say I don't mind this any more than I mind like Perfect Defense or something.

But I do mind it a little more.

Granted, it's a Transcendental level power, just like, I'd say most, abilities at that level it creates a layer of defense that needs to be either negated or countered.

That said, countering it is a little more difficult, as you basically need to abrogate it to counter it.

My suggested solutions are

1, change it to ecl as you suggested, but as Obly pointed out that can get really clunky

2, base it on a more usable mechanic. I made it like Elusion for the longest time but eventually allowed it to stay as it was before changing it to my current solution..

3, base it on the DC of one of your opponents basic special ability DCs. Personally I think this one makes the most sense. The Opponent's DC is 10+1/2 level, +their Charisma modifier, + any bonuses (divine bonus, and "spirit" abilities, etc).


Of the three presented, I think choice 3 is the most balanced and remains relevant while remaining unique.

That way the DC always is hard, stays relevant to the opponent's potential power and isn't some broken, one off mechanic that needs absolute help.

Also as I make Invincibility a Div ability, it gives you one at Divine level of power, one at Cosmic, and one at Transcendental, meaning someone who wants to go down the "invulnerability" path has a clear and defined route to do so.

 

[Obly99]

That way the DC always is hard, stays relevant to the opponent'sso as I make Invincibility a Div ability, it gives you one at Divine level of power, one at Cosmic, and one at Transcendental, meaning someone who wants to go down the "invulnerability" path has a clear and defined route to do so.

The progression three is going to be Invincibility (Div.) -> Elusion (Cos.) -> Sophism (Tra.)/True Invincibility (Invincibility Reworked)?

 

[Beefermatic]

The progression three is going to be Invincibility (Div.) -> Elusion (Cos.) -> Sophism (Tra.)/True Invincibility (Invincibility Reworked)?

I'd call it something different but meaning the same thing, Invulnerability, I suggest. Make it so you are simply immune to any form of attack from a being with lower Div Rank as Lordnightshade suggested.

I would say that certain forms of attack should still perhaps affect them. Maybe attacks that don't require a save, Expression of Power avoids it etc.

I'd even argue that at that point a 4th ability seems superfluous as the rework to Invincibility was only made as base Invincibility as a Transcendental power was useless. I'm not against this however.

 

[Obly99]

I'd call it something different but meaning the same thing, Invulnerability, I suggest. Make it so you are simply immune to any form of attack from a being with lower Div Rank as Lordnightshade suggested.

I would say that certain forms of attack should still perhaps affect them. Maybe attacks that don't require a save, Expression of Power avoids it etc.

I'd even argue that at that point a 4th ability seems superfluous as the rework to Invincibility was only made as base Invincibility as a Transcendental power is useless.

INVINCIBILITY (SU) (Div.)
Turn aside blows that would fell others.
Prerequisites: Fortitude +30.
Benefit: You can make a Fortitude save to avoid damage from any source. The DC is equal to the damage itself.

ELUSION (EX)
You can use your reflexes to avoid blows.
Prerequisites: Invincibility, Reflex save +45.
Benefit: You can make a Reflex saving throw against the opponent’s attack (DC foe attack roll result) to avoid it.

TRUE INVINCIBILITY (SU) (Trans.)
You are a paragon of stalwart.
Prerequisites: Elusion, Fortitude +130.
Benefit: You are automatically immune to all assault of foe with lesser divine rank than you. This is ignored by an opponent that use the Supremacy (Trans. Ab.) on you. You can make a Fortitude save to avoid any form of assualt. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 foe HD + foe Cha modifier + divine rank (or equivalent) of the foe + any universal modifier of the DC of the foe (like X [Spirit]). This ability cannot be combined with Transilient Fortitude.

 

[Beefermatic]

INVINCIBILITY (SU) (Div.)
Turn aside blows that would fell others.
Prerequisites: Fortitude +30.
Benefit: You can make a Fortitude save to avoid damage from any source. The DC is equal to the damage itself.

ELUSION (EX)
You can use your reflexes to avoid blows.
Prerequisites: Invincibility, Reflex save +45.
Benefit: You can make a Reflex saving throw against the opponent’s attack (DC foe HD + divine rank or equivalent) to avoid it.

TRUE INVINCIBILITY (SU) (Trans.)
You are a paragon of stalwart.
Prerequisites: Elusion, Fortitude +130.
Benefit: You are automatically immune to all assault of foe with lesser divine rank than you. This is ignored by an opponent that use the Supremacy (Trans. Ab.) on you. You can make a Fortitude save to avoid any form of assualt. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 foe HD + foe Cha modifier + divine rank (or equivalent) of the foe + any universal modifier of the DC of the foe (like X [Spirit]). This ability cannot be combined with Transilient Fortitude.

True Invincibility seems cool. Solid power though I think it should be Omnific and like my name better though lol

Elusion should just be the enemy’s full attack bonus with all modifiers in my opinion

 

[Obly99]

Elusion should just be the enemy’s full attack bonus with all modifiers in my opinion

DC = Attack roll result?

 

[Beefermatic]

DC = Attack roll result?

That's how I do it, otherwise it suffers the same kind of brokenness as Sophism where you can just infinitely dodge everything all the time

 

[Obly99]

That's how I do it, otherwise it suffers the same kind of brokenness as Sophism where you can just infinitely dodge everything all the time

Did you put in a mechanism for Sophism like my True Invincibility DC?

 

[Beefermatic]

Did you put in a mechanism for Sophism like my True Invincibility DC?

Yeah that's what I said earlier, it's my current solution. So far so good, though some players like the old way where it's just against the ecl, but honestly that makes a feedback loop where essentially the more templates you pick up, the more "invincible" you get.

 

[Obly99]

Haterax the Invincible​

CE Gargantuan outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)

Init +24 (always first); Senses detect good, detect law, true seeing; Perception +114

DEFENSE

AC 133, touch 83, flat-footed 125 (+8 circumstance, +45 deflection, +8 Dex, +8 divine, +8 luck, +50 natural, -4 size)

hp 7.280 (80d10+3.200) x2 regeneration 200 (permanent damage)

Fort +180, Ref +148, Will +163

Defensive Abilities evasion, freedom of movement, karmic bond, malleable form; DR 100/cold iron, epic, and lawful; Immune ability damage and drain, charm and compulsion effects, death effects, electricity, energy drain, fire, petrification, poison; Resist acid 30, cold 30; SR 98

OFFENSE

Speed 80 ft., fly 160 ft. (perfect)

Melee 6 claws +199 (4d6+25 plus grab)

Ranged 4 ray of madness +182 (4d4 Wisdom damage and 2d4 Wisdom drain)

Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.

Special Attacks constrict (4d6+25 plus 2d4 Wisdom drain), poisonous words (DC 121), ray of madness (300 ft. range; Will DC 119 half the damage and drain)

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 88th, concentration +141)

Constant—detect good, detect law, freedom of movement, nondetection (self only), tongues, true seeing

At will—astral projection, chaos hammer (DC 78), deeper darkness, desecrate, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, plane shift (DC 81), power word blind, telekinesis (DC 79), scrying (DC 78), shapechange, unhallow

8/day—finger of death (DC 81), summon demons (6d6 any CR 20 or less), symbol of death (DC 82)

3/day—gate, soul bind (DC 83), time stop, wail of the banshee (DC 83), wish

STATISTICS

Str 60, Dex 26, Con 90, Int 46, Wis 56, Cha 90

Base Atk +80; CMB +207; CMD 196

Feats Ability Focus (poisonous words), Ability Focus (reflection), Improved Initiative

Epic Feats Superior Initiative

Skills All skills 91 + ability modifier;

Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic; tongues; telepathy 1 mile

SQ divine traits (fallen deity), unsuspected

Haterax renounce 36 feats for 6 extra divine ability slot.

Divine Abilities

• Amarantine Body (Ex): Divine Rank as circumstance to AC.

• Amarantine Mind (Ex): Cos as circumstance to attack rolls.

• Amarantine Soul (Ex): Cos as circumstance to saving throw.

• Amarantine Spirit (Ex): Divine Rank as circumstance to DC.

• Asport (Su): You can summon items from an opponents grasp (range 900 ft.; DC 114).

• Distant Gaze (Su): Your gaze can push enemies out of the plane you currently occupy (DC 113).

• Eternal Freedom (Ex): You are immune to spells and effects which impede your movement.

• Heavenly Body (Ex): Divine Rank as luck to AC.

• Heavenly Mind (Ex): Cha as luck to attack rolls.

• Heavenly Soul (Ex): Cha as luck to saving throw.

• Heavenly Spirit (Ex): Divine Rank as luck to DC.

• Maven (Ex): Maximum rank in all know skill.

• Omnicompetent (Ex): All skills are class skill.

• Perfect Initiative (Ex): Always First.

Claws of a Shattered Reality (Su)
Haterax’s claws slice through reality, allowing it to make melee attacks against any creature it is aware of (usually with a range of 3 miles). The demon still only threatens the 20-foot area around it and cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures farther away. This ability can span vast distances, allowing Haterax making use of divination magic to detect distant creatures and attack foes separated by miles or even planes. Spells like forbiddance, which prevent planar travel, protect against Haterax’s claws. The spell dimensional anchor also prevents Haterax from using this ability for the duration of that spell. An attacked creature can retaliate until the beginning of Haterax’s next turn, striking at the demon’s claws with weapons or spells as if it were physically present, but Haterax’s claws receive a size bonus to AC as if they were two sizes smaller than him, and the attacked creature cannot grapple or otherwise prevent the claws from vanishing out of reach at the end of the round. If Haterax grapple a creature with its claws, the creature must break the grapple before the start of the demon next turn or be transported in a square adjacent to the monster while its claws retract.

Divine Traits (Fallen Deity) (Ex)
As a fallen deity, Haterax gains a +8 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, etc.); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance. It also gains 8 divine ability slot and multiply its hit points x2. He does not gains, however, any other benefits a deity normally gain.

Malleable Form (Su)
Haterax has complete control over its physical form, and if transformed into another shape against its will, it can revert to its own form as a free action.

Poisonous Words (Su)
The words of Haterax are poison to the mind. Every round Haterax speaks verbally or with telepathy (a free action), all non-demons with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher that hear him must make a DC 116 Will save or become vulnerable to its blasphemous discourse. The DC of this Will save increases by +1 for each consecutive round a creature has listened to the same mind plunderer speak.

The demon may use its speech to affect a listener in ways that mimic any of the following spells:

calm emotions, charm monster, command, confusion, crushing despair, deep slumber (without limit of HD), dominate monster, enthrall, modify memory, rage, or suggestion.

Victims still receive saving throws against these spell effects, but if they fail their saves they are not aware the demon is working its power upon them. Haterax can affect multiple victims with different spell effects in the same round.

This effect ignore immunity to charm, compulsion or mind-affecting effects of creatures with less HD of Haterax. They instead gain +4 to the save. The base save DC is Charisma-based.

Karmic Bond (Ex)
Every time Haterax is hit with an attack or suffer a non-harmless spell (before apply DR and spell resistance) can force one creature within 1 mile of himself to make a Will save DC 116. If the creature fail the save, he suffer the attack or the effect instead of Haterax. If the creature succeed the saving throw, Haterax can select a creature within 30 ft. of itself. That creature take half the damage of the effect instead of Haterax. This emergency version of the effect can only transfer hit points damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Unsuspected (Su)
A creature that attempts a save against any of Haterax’s abilities is unaware that it has done so unless obvious visual evidence is present.