D&D (2024) Treantmonk's Ranger DPS video:

[FrogReaver]

But that isn't the actual thing going on. You are expecting to make four attacks AFTER applying Hunter's Mark in the future. At the moment you are deciding to take the action though, you have two paths in front of you. You can deal 4d6+16 (30) damage by not using Hunter's Mark, or you can deal 6d6+12 (33) damage by using Hunter's Mark. Dealing 8d6+16 damage is NOT AN OPTION. You cannot do that without applying Hunter's Mark on the turn before. So choosing to use Hunter's Mark is not losing damage, because a) it deal more damage to use Hunter's Mark as a Bonus action and make 3 attacks than to make 4 attacks without it and b) you cannot deal the maximum damage without having set up Hunter's mark first.

Your premise rests on being able to use Hunter's Mark without having cast or moved it first. But that isn't how it works.

If i'm counting the damage because i was expecting it and then don't get that, most of us call that a loss. I mean you can argue that it's super pendantically technically correct that it isn't actually a loss, but at that point i just don't care. You know exactly what I meant.

 

[ECMO3]

Interesting hypothesis, but not one i really believe without something more to back it up. Care to show a workup on it?

sure:

Level 2 PC 16 Dex, Two Weapon Fighting Style, 3 rounds of combat vs AC 14. Starting combat with a normal (non advantage) attack.

Average total damage over 3 rounds:

Two pistols with Vex: 40.7 (assumes short range)

Two shortswords with Vex: 30.8

One Shortsword and One Scimitar with Vex/Nick: 28.3

These numbers include advantage from vex, crits and it includes increased chance to crit from Vex when applicable.

 

[Zardnaar]

sure:

Level 2 PC 16 Dex, Two Weapon Fighting Style, 4 rounds of combat vs AC 14. Starting combat with a normal (non advantage) attack.

Average total damage over 4 rounds:

Two pistols with Vex: 40.7 (assumes short range)

Two shortswords with Vex: 30.8

One Shortsword and One Scimitar with Vex/Nick: 28.3

These numbers include advantage from vex, crits and it includes increased chance to crit from Vex when applicable.

Depends if you have anything to do with your bonus action. Eg smite, divine favor, hex, hunters mark, dual wield feat.
That's where nick shines.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Expertise in stealth might make that possible.

Also, if there are a lot of enemies, range has some decent AoEs instead.

Sure if you get a free round you can cast the spell. But then you are still faced with the identical scenario. You can either make 4 attacks without casting the spell, or three attacks while casting the spell.

Range is an entirely different consideration. Because you were not going to be using your dual-wielding at range.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If i'm counting the damage because i was expecting it and then don't get that, most of us call that a loss. I mean you can argue that it's super pendantically technically correct that it isn't actually a loss, but at that point i just don't care. You know exactly what I meant.

No, I really don't know what you mean. How are you losing the damage of Hunter's Mark already being active, by needing to cast Hunter's Mark to activate it? You were never expecting it to already be on the target, because that isn't how the spell works. It has never worked that way. It is like saying you want to have Divine Smite hit a target while you also dodge. You cannot physically do so (assuming normal paladin action economy)

You want Hunter's Mark damage and are saying you are losing damage by needing to cast Hunter's Mark, but the only point you are losing damage from is from a potential situation of already having Hunter's Mark on a target, in which case, there is not choice to cast Hunter's Mark on that target because it is already on the target. Would you be able to deal more damage if the Hunter's Mark was a free non-action to cast? Sure, but that has never once been how that spell operated, so it is kind of disingenuous to call it "losing damage" to a hypothetical version of the spell that never existed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

sure:

Level 2 PC 16 Dex, Two Weapon Fighting Style, 4 rounds of combat vs AC 14. Starting combat with a normal (non advantage) attack.

Average total damage over 4 rounds:

Two pistols with Vex: 40.7 (assumes short range)

Two shortswords with Vex: 30.8

One Shortsword and One Scimitar with Vex/Nick: 28.3

These numbers include advantage from vex, crits and it includes increased chance to crit from Vex when applicable.

Wow, that took me like three times reading it to understand what the heck you were doing. But, there are a LOT of assumptions that need to be noted.

For example, you are assuming that you are within 30 ft, but never in melee with the enemy. As a dex based character you are often going to be going BEFORE the enemy. So, that means you need to move within 30 ft of the enemy, still have movement to retreat from the enemy, and the enemy cannot take the dash action. Because if they do... oops, disadvantage on those pistol attacks.

But, breaking down this math....
16 dex, +2 prof, looking at a +5 to hit. AC 14 means you hit on a 9 or better. That is the standard 60% chance to hit.

Damage is 1d10+3 or 8.5. First attack would be 8.5(0.60)+5.5(0.05) or 5.375.
Second attack has a 60% chance of having advantage. So, if I have this correct that is 0.60(8.5(0.84) + 5.5(0.0975)) + 0.40(8.5(0.60)+5.5(0.05)) or 4.606+2.15 = 6.756
And it gets more complex from there, but I'm fine saying that this looks like about 12.13 per round

No, what does the Shortsword and Scimitar do? Well, using that same math
Damage is 1d6+3 or 6.5. First attack would be with the Nick weapon for 6.5(0.60)+3.5(0.05) or 4.075
Second attack is the same 6.5(0.60)+3.5(0.05) or 4.075
Start of next round has Vex and is 0.60(6.5(0.84) + 3.5(0.0975)) + 0.40(6.5(0.60)+3.5(0.05)) = 3.481+1.63 or 5.111
So, first round is 8.15 with the next round being 9.186 on a good day. However, no need to worry about the enemy getting into melee, and if the enemy avoids melee then you can just pull pistols.


But where this gets interesting is with Hunter's Mark. Because Hunter's Mark hurts your damage for Pistols and helps your damage for Shortsword and scimitar.

Cast Hunter's Mark for the pistol, then you drop to just doing 12(0.6)+9(.05) = 7.65 on that turn, dealing 15.3 on later turns unless you have to switch the mark.

Cast it on the Scimitar and Shortsword, and you get this
10(0.60)+7(0.05) = 6.35
10(0.60)+7(0.05) = 6.35
And that ALONE is 12.7 which is BETTER than what I calculated for your dual pistols without Hunter's Mark. And, by looking at my math, I likely ended up with higher numbers than you did for the pistol.

And on later turns you can get
0.60(10(0.84) + 7(0.0975)) + 0.40(10(0.60)+7(0.05)) = 5.45+2.54 = 7.99 + 6.35= 14.34 per turn

So... it only sort of works. Yes, the Pistols can be more damage, if you have nothing to spend the bonus action on and if you can keep at the proper range. Of course, you can take a feat to remove that range restriction... while the dual-melee build is spending feats on improving their damage or increasing their defenses. So I don't think this is as cut and dry as you made it sound.

 

[ECMO3]

Depends if you have anything to do with your bonus action. Eg smite, divine favor, hex, hunters mark, dual wield feat.
That's where nick shines.

Agreed. My point is though that using your bonus action for something else does give up damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

sure:

Level 2 PC 16 Dex, Two Weapon Fighting Style, 4 rounds of combat vs AC 14. Starting combat with a normal (non advantage) attack.

Average total damage over 4 rounds:

Two pistols with Vex: 40.7 (assumes short range)

Two shortswords with Vex: 30.8

One Shortsword and One Scimitar with Vex/Nick: 28.3

These numbers include advantage from vex, crits and it includes increased chance to crit from Vex when applicable.

Something seems off. 6.5 x2 @60% = 7.8. After 4 rounds that's 4*7.8 = 31.2. That's before crits or advantage from vex or anything.

 

[ECMO3]

Wow, that took me like three times reading it to understand what the heck you were doing. But, there are a LOT of assumptions that need to be noted.

Yes there are a lot of assumptions, but when we are talking about applying advantage on some attacks, but only when you hit, and not on others you are going to have to have a lot of assumptions.

For example, you are assuming that you are within 30 ft, but never in melee with the enemy. As a dex based character you are often going to be going BEFORE the enemy. So, that means you need to move within 30 ft of the enemy, still have movement to retreat from the enemy, and the enemy cannot take the dash action. Because if they do... oops, disadvantage on those pistol attacks.

Ok a couple things. ... you make some good points, and I did assume the guy with pistols was not in melee. But it is not as easy as you think. If you hit with my pistol on my 2nd attack (most likely with advantage) then my first attack of the next round has advantage because of Vex. So it is not at disadvantage, it is straight up and if I hit with that one the second is not at disadvantage.

Also I can transition to shortswords and get advantage on those attacks and still do more base damage than a vex-nick combo.

But, breaking down this math....
16 dex, +2 prof, looking at a +5 to hit. AC 14 means you hit on a 9 or better. That is the standard 60% chance to hit.

Damage is 1d10+3 or 8.5. First attack would be 8.5(0.60)+5.5(0.05) or 5.375.
Second attack has a 60% chance of having advantage. So, if I have this correct that is 0.60(8.5(0.84) + 5.5(0.0975)) + 0.40(8.5(0.60)+5.5(0.05)) or 4.606+2.15 = 6.756
And it gets more complex from there, but I'm fine saying that this looks like about 12.13 per round

It does get very complex, you don't really have DPR with Vex because the advantage goes into the next round and because it triggers on a hit each attack is not independant of other attacks. Your average DPR actually goes up every round. Having advantage on the attack I am making currently (because of Vex on the last attack) makes it more likely I will have Vex on the next attack I make because of Advantage because I am more likely to hit on this one.

The first attack against an enemy in a fight is the only one that is independent of other attacks if you are fighting with two Vex weapons.

It is 12.13 the first round, but it goes up every round after that because you do not have an attack that is automatically 100% without advantage dragging you down. Long term as the number of attacks you made approaches infinity the DPR will approach 15 (against a 14 AC). The more rounds you have the closer it will get to 15.

But where this gets interesting is with Hunter's Mark. Because Hunter's Mark hurts your damage for Pistols and helps your damage for Shortsword and scimitar.

HM does hurt your damage with pistols and that is the whole point - you are giving up damage by casting/moving Hunter's Mark.

The original post was that it does not cost anything to move/use Hunter's Mark before level 4. It does.

 

[ECMO3]

Something seems off. 6.5 x2 @60% = 7.8. After 4 rounds that's 4*7.8 = 31.2. That's before crits or advantage from vex or anything.

The numbers are after 3 rounds, not 4. My bad. I will fix that in the post.