Unbalancing Strike+Exp. Tactician+Sneak Attack or Unbalanced Strike?

[Ishamael]

Was thinking about this last night. It appears, as written, Unbalancing Strike can be a sneak attack itself.

This example is put together with AEG's ninja Core class but will also work with a standard rogue.

Now get this: You will get to see a Monk/Ninja take down a Fighter of equal level before the fighter can react.

Round One: Human Monk 1/ninja 4 vs. Orc Fighter 5 (44hp)

Ninja sneaks up on Orc.

Surprise! Ninja attacks with quick jab to the throat. Unbalancing
Strike: 1d6+2 + 2d6 = 11 dmg. Orc now at 33.
Orc Denied Dexterity bonus [Flat footed]. Activates the ninja's Expert Tactician.

Ninja attacks with ninja-to: 1d6+2 + 2d6 = 11 dmg. Orc now at 22.

Round Two: Initiative: Ninja (+5), Orc (+1) Ninja wins initiative.

Orc is denied Dexterity Bonus from Unbalancing Strike used in round 1.

Ninja Attacks with an unarmed strike to the temple. Unbalancing Strike:1d6+2 + 2d6 = 11 dmg. Orc now at 11.

Loss of the Orc's dexterity bonus activates Expert Tactician again. Ninja attacks with ninja-to: 1d6+2 + 2d6 = 11 dmg. Orc now at 0.
(If the Orc had more hit points, the ninja could use his Stunning Attack to buy himself an extra round.)

This is just using the average damage done. This is a nasty combo. Think of the horror of fighting with two weapons or just opting to attack with the sword and fist.

Personally, I think I will rule that Unbalancing Strike cannot have Sneak Attack damage applied. The flavor text says that the character attacks a joint to throw the character off balance. It is easy to rule that attacking the joint isn't an accurate enough strike to warrant the extra Sneak Attack damage. Of course, we'll just have to over look the fact that all of your joints are covered in pressure points.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Well, remember the monk/ninja gave up better monk and ninja abilities...Hey, it had to be said.

The biggest problem I have with unbalancing strike is the save's DC. At 10+1/2 lvl +wis it's an extremely difficult save, always. I think I'd require you either do no damage with an unbalancing strike or lower the DC to maybe a +1/4 lvl so people have a chance. For anybody else but a multiclass monk/thief-like-person it's a so-so feat with good cooperation potential. The multi, well could be bad...

 

[SpikeyFreak]

With an attack bonus of +3 or +4 (depending on the PrC you are talking about, I'm not familiar with it) he is problably going to have a hard time hitting the fighter every time. Especially since the fighter will probably have full plate +1 and a decent dex (maybe 12). That's an AC of 20 right there, and it goes down to, gasp, 19 when he is faltfooted.

He better open up a can o'whoop-behind because when he's done, if the fighter isn't dead, the rogue is going to be in a wolrd of hurt.

--Unbalanced Spikey

 

[The Cardinal]

With an attack bonus of +3 or +4 (depending on the PrC you are talking about, I'm not familiar with it) he is problably going to have a hard time hitting the fighter every time.
--Unbalanced Spikey

a ninja (Rokugan D20 base class) has the same BAB progression as a fighter...

 

[daTim]

I think alot of people treat the unbalancing strike like a stunning fist in terms of usage, so a level one monk would only be able to do that once per day. Also in that combat example, you assume the ninja hits the orc every time, and that he fails every save. Dont forget that orc can deal out some damage to the low HP ninja and might kill him first, especially if it misses once.

 

[Ishamael]

I think alot of people treat the unbalancing strike like a stunning fist in terms of usage, so a level one monk would only be able to do that once per day. Also in that combat example, you assume the ninja hits the orc every time, and that he fails every save. Dont forget that orc can deal out some damage to the low HP ninja and might kill him first, especially if it misses once.

Your right. It is just an assumption that he will hit every time. Still, with +4 BAB, +2 Strength, Masterwork Ninja-to, +2 from Unbalancing Strike, and the orc's loss of a dex bonus he gets like, +9 to hit an AC of probably 16 or 17 or so. Good chance he will hit. But your right, it's not definate.

Check the effects of Unbalancing Strike and Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is an Unbalancing Strike with the additional effect of stunning the opponent for one round. Other than that, they are identicle.

If you had to use one of your Stunning Attacks to perform an Unbalancing Strike, you would be giving it up for an inferior attack.

You would be spending a feat to get a special attack that is weaker than the one you already had.

 

[daTim]

I dont feel that unbalancing strike is any weaker than stunning fist because it requires a reflex save to not fail. Against people like giants, high level tanks etc, they will typicaly fail a relfex save, but would almost always pass a fortitude save from a stunning fist.

 

[Ishamael]

Not worth it.

Still, it is clear that Unbalancing Strike was designed to give a little something to the monks. If it can't be used any time they want to use it, what good is it?

Would you waste your stunning attack for an attack that, if they fail their save, will only make them a little easier to hit? Sure, it's nice, but there is no way my monk, with his limited number of feats, would take that over, say.... Extra Stunning Attacks.

Big burly creatures with good fortitude saves tend to have low dexterity mods anyway. If you use up one of your valuable Stunning Attacks to do an Unbalancing Strike and succeed, they will only be +3 or whatever to hit the next round. Not worth it, I'd rather try to get a Stunning Attack and hope they roll bad. Yea, you have a better chance of hitting with an Unbalancing Strike, but I'd rather risk a Stunning Attack as the pay off is so

It might work if you say that the monk has the same number of Unbalancing Strikes as he does Stunning Attacks, but still, you'd be better off just taking Extra Stunning Attacks.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Ishamael, you are contradicting yourself.

You come up with a really good, potentially broken strategy, and it hinges on the use of Unbalancing Strike.

Then someone says that Unbalancing Strike should have a limited number of uses per day, and you say that that would make it useless because Unbalancing Strike isn't very powerful.

Unbalancing Strike would still be a powerful ability, even with it's uses per day capped, your first example proves that.

--Incontrovertible Spikey

 

[BlindKobold]

Why go with unbalancing strike at all? There's other alternatives.

Grab one level of gladiator and get improved feint and take Expert Tactician. Bluff as a ME action, which makes them lose DEX and activates Expert Tactician. This gives you a Standard action to attack. You can combine the two standard actions into a full action and do a full attack with two weapons, both as sneak attacks!

Something like this:

1st - Rogue 1 - Combat Reflexes,
2nd - Ranger 1 - Ambidexterity, Two-weapon Fighting
3rd - Rogue 2 (or Ninja) - Weapon Finese (short sword or ninja-to)
4th - Rogue 3 (or Ninja) - +1 DEX
5th - Rogue 4 (or Ninja)
6th - Rogue 5 (or Ninja) - Expert Tactician
7th - Rogue 6 (or Ninja) -
8th - Gladiator 1 - Improved Feint, +1 DEX

At 8th level, you should have +6/+1, which added to weapon finese (assuming 20 DEX) should be +10/+1, and with 2-weapon fighting should go to +8/-1/+8. Each hit will be doing 4d6 plus poison if you are a ninja. Assuming AC 20, you two 40% chances to hit. Each connect forces a FORT save for poison and does 4d6. That's really not bad.

Compare that to a fighter who will have +8/+3, with STR probably +13/+6. Assuming the rogue/ninja has +4 AC for magic armor, +5 for DEX, that gives him a 19 AC, possibly 20 with a buckler or magical ring. So the fighter has a 65% chance to connect for 1d12+5 and a 30% chance to connect for 1d12+5.

So the fighter has a better chance to do 6-17 damage (remember, if he uses power attack, his chance to hit goes down) compared to the rogue who has slightly lesser chance to do 4-16 plus possibly poison.

Or... you can go with Quicker than the Eye right off the bat and do something similiar as soon as you get Expert Tactician. Only advantage to Improved Feint is that feint is opposed by Sense Motive, which is a cross-class for nearly everyone and almost no one has ranks in it. Quicker than the Eye is opposed by Spot, which everyone tends to put ranks into.