D&D 5E Want a better Rogue? Build a Wizard. Or why play a Rogue?

[TaranTheWanderer]

Rogues are great in combat. I'd take them over a wizard for staying power and damage. Taking half or no damage against AoE spells, taking half damage when getting hit etc...A wizard has crowd control and buffs and damage but spell management is a factor.

I played a rogue to 10th level and never lost more than a quarter of my hit points.

I usually play a mage or bard in a campaign where I can do all the cool world-building/organization stuff: sending, teleport.

If there's lots of combat, I default to a warrior class or a rogue class. The rogues are so much more flexible out of combat too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The rogue will likely have a better perception

On what planet is it likely the Rogue will have good Perception check? Because I've never seen a Rogue PC in 5E who had a good one. Rogues very often dump WIS (as it's in-character to do so for a lot of them, and offers them little). Best case scenario is likely to be 0 WIS mod, +proficiency bonus for skill.

Familiars, on the other hand, often have a decent Perception score, AND several of them have advantage on sight or sound or both Perception checks. Further, within 100' (1 mile if Pact of the Chain Warlock), the caster can see through their eyes, allowing them to silently relay all the information back to the rest of the party, which is huge.

Rogues do usually have hilariously better Stealth checks though. Apparently some 6'4", 7' if horns counted bright-red-skinned Tiefling in ostentatious leather armour and with a gleaming blade drawn is much harder to spot than like, a weasel sneaking along a sideboard, or an owl sitting in a tree. D&D!

Either way I kind of prefer not having Rogues in a large party. In a three-person or even four-person party, having the party split whilst the Rogue scouts ahead is fine, but then if the Rogue actually tries to do anything, they usually just cause a problem, so basically they just have to creep back to the party and tell them what's up. Whereas a Familiar can at least be kind of a "real-time feed" as it were, which is less disruptive. And once you get to 5-6 people, it can be a real pain if the party gets split (it's less so if multiple people are with the Rogue at least).

 

[Fanaelialae]

On what planet is it likely the Rogue will have good Perception check? Because I've never seen a Rogue PC in 5E who had a good one. Rogues very often dump WIS (as it's in-character to do so for a lot of them, and offers them little). Best case scenario is likely to be 0 WIS mod, +proficiency bonus for skill.

Familiars, on the other hand, often have a decent Perception score, AND several of them have advantage on sight or sound or both Perception checks. Further, within 100' (1 mile if Pact of the Chain Warlock), the caster can see through their eyes, allowing them to silently relay all the information back to the rest of the party, which is huge.

Rogues do usually have hilariously better Stealth checks though. Apparently some 6'4", 7' if horns counted bright-red-skinned Tiefling in ostentatious leather armour and with a gleaming blade drawn is much harder to spot than like, a weasel sneaking along a sideboard, or an owl sitting in a tree. D&D!

Either way I kind of prefer not having Rogues in a large party. In a three-person or even four-person party, having the party split whilst the Rogue scouts ahead is fine, but then if the Rogue actually tries to do anything, they usually just cause a problem, so basically they just have to creep back to the party and tell them what's up. Whereas a Familiar can at least be kind of a "real-time feed" as it were, which is less disruptive. And once you get to 5-6 people, it can be a real pain if the party gets split (it's less so if multiple people are with the Rogue at least).

A rogue is almost certainly proficient with Perception, and will likely have expertise by 6th level. Moreover, my rogue had a 12 Wisdom I think (I wanted to avoid surprise and mind control).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

On what planet is it likely the Rogue will have good Perception check? Because I've never seen a Rogue PC in 5E who had a good one. Rogues very often dump WIS (as it's in-character to do so for a lot of them, and offers them little). Best case scenario is likely to be 0 WIS mod, +proficiency bonus for skill.

Most of the rogues I play have amazing perception checks. I usually make dex highest, then wisdom and con. After that, it's a toss-up between INT and CHA depending if i'm going to be more social or not. STR gets dumped. Then I put expertise in Perception. I occasionally take Observant.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Most of the rogues I play have amazing perception checks. I usually make dex highest, then wisdom and con. After that, it's a toss-up between INT and CHA depending if i'm going to be more social or not. STR gets dumped. Then I put expertise in Perception. I occasionally take Observant.

Well, that's a data point, but I submit that you are unusual in this (and smart, frankly, to do so - Rogues are much more useful as Scouts if they do pump WIS).

A rogue is almost certainly proficient with Perception, and will likely have expertise by 6th level. Moreover, my rogue had a 12 Wisdom I think (I wanted to avoid surprise and mind control).

Which still leaves them behind a familiar who gets Advantage on the appropriate check - and one of the familiars has Advantage on both sight and sound, which is easily 95% of Perception checks.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, that's a data point, but I submit that you are unusual in this (and smart, frankly, to do so - Rogues are much more useful as Scouts if they do pump WIS).



Which still leaves them behind a familiar who gets Advantage on the appropriate check - and one of the familiars has Advantage on both sight and sound, which is easily 95% of Perception checks.

The owl is probably best with respect to scouting IMO (+3 Perception with advantage on Perception checks relying on hearing or sight, along with proficiency in stealth and flyby).

At 6th level, a rogue with only a 12 Wisdom and expertise in Perception has a +7 Perception, before any racial benefits, spells, or magic items. The latter is relevant because they can grant advantage on Perception checks (for example, Enhance Ability) which won't stack with the owl but will further enhance the rogue.

Leaving that aside, advantage gives an average roll of 13.82 vs 10.5 without it. That means that advantage is effectively worth just over +3. Effectively, the owl has a +6 vs the rogue's +7. Close, but rogue is better.

The disparity grows even more with level. By 11th level, the owl hasn't changed but the rogue has a +9 bonus and Reliable Talent, meaning he can't roll lower than a 19. That blows the owl out of the water.

A familiar might be better at low levels, but they just can't compare with a rogue in the long term.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, that's a data point, but I submit that you are unusual in this (and smart, frankly, to do so - Rogues are much more useful as Scouts if they do pump WIS).

If you design your rogue sub-optimally, then its performance will be sub-optimal.

That isn't the fault of the class.

 

[billd91]

Leaving that aside, advantage gives an average roll of 13.82 vs 10.5 without it. That means that advantage is effectively worth just over +3. Effectively, the owl has a +6 vs the rogue's +7. Close, but rogue is better.

One additional issue: That effective +6 due to advantage for the owl is good... but it won't increase the upper range of the check as much as the rogue's +7 will. The rogue has a chance of perceiving things the owl simply cannot.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Leaving that aside, advantage gives an average roll of 13.82 vs 10.5 without it. That means that advantage is effectively worth just over +3. Effectively, the owl has a +6 vs the rogue's +7. Close, but rogue is better.

That is not how the math on Advantage works. It's dependent entirely on the target DC. It often works out close to +5.

The point is, the Familiar is near-zero investment. If you can cast Find Familiar, you will, and if you want an optimal familiar, you will pick Owl (it's pretty much all-round the best also it's an owl and owls are awesome).

Whereas you're talking about prioritizing WIS to some degree (and thus likely having a 0 mod in CHA and also STR, though the latter is generally only used for Athletics, which, sadly, includes all climbing - you might also have a lower CON as a result), then picking Perception for Expertise.

If you design your rogue sub-optimally, then its performance will be sub-optimal.

That isn't the fault of the class.

Claiming the optimal design of Rogues is to pump WIS so they can scout seems like a very daring take on what "optimal" is. It's certainly a design that you can do - whether it's an "optimal" one is another question and one that depends on your party and how they operate.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

That is not how the math on Advantage works. It's dependent entirely on the target DC. It often works out close to +5.

The point is, the Familiar is near-zero investment. If you can cast Find Familiar, you will, and if you want an optimal familiar, you will pick Owl (it's pretty much all-round the best also it's an owl and owls are awesome).

Whereas you're talking about prioritizing WIS to some degree (and thus likely having a 0 mod in CHA and also STR, though the latter is generally only used for Athletics, which, sadly, includes all climbing - you might also have a lower CON as a result), then picking Perception for Expertise.

And how much are you investing in making a wizard that's as good as any given rogue versus making a rogue that does some roguish things better than other roguish things? (does that sentence make sense?? ignore it)

My point is you'd need quite a bit more investment to make a wizard as good as a rogue. And the wizard will still be worse in any rogue's chosen niche.