D&D 5E Was the Rune Knight (in Tasha's) "over-nerfed"?

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The only people who get hps every turn during the fight are those who get hit.

So? That's still reducing the amount of damage that they take by a lot, especially because it regenerates every round, without any actions required by you to take on subsequent turns to maintain, or even concentration.

The others just get an extra 1 or 2 if they roll higher the following turn.

Which is still good.

As for "lasting" hps, a casting of aid at 3rd level is about as many "lasting" hps, but they are actual hps, generally
last longer and stack.

But this doesn't take spell slots, regains on a short rest, has a ton more benefits and it stacks with Aid and similar buffs.

I have played with a twilight cleric and I did not find it as overpowered as people claim. Powerful yes, extraordinary no and there are more effective ways to buff yourself. The biggest benefit of the channel diviinity is it is not concentration so you can combine it with something comparable.

From my experiences debating with you on similar topics of balance before, we have very different definitions of what "balanced" is. I've had a twilight cleric in my campaign, and I found that it was more powerful than any ever cleric that's ever been at our table, and was the most powerful character at the table by far (the other characters were an Oath of the Ancients Paladin and a Tasha's Beastmaster Ranger with a Beast of the Land). Neither of the two other characters were underpowered, they were both really powerful, but the Twilight Cleric blew them both out the water in terms of sustainable damage, buffing, and utility.

I don't think it is as strong or disruptive a subclass as a Fey Wanderer or an optimized Bladesinger. An llth level fey wanderer every single turn can take an action, have his Fey (and he can have up to four of them) each make another attacks and each Fey cast a charm and can do that every turn, going Nova that is 6 attacks and 4 charms every single turn, while running a concentration spell on top of that to boot. They can do all of that every single turn, and the charms last for the battle or until they get damaged with no follow on save every turn. If they get lucky and save against the initial Charm the Ranger can redirect one a turn using beguiling twist. Against a single boss man you can attack him 3 times then charm him mutliple times so he can't attack you until he is damaged and do it again next turn (damaging him first to break the charm, then charming him again).

Hang on a minute, because there's quite a few flaws with your argument here.

First off, that's at 11th level. Most campaigns barely reach that level and end soon after they get that high. Twilight Cleric gets Twilight Sanctuary at level 2. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Secondly, Fey Reinforcements takes a 3rd-level spell slot to use more than once each long rest, which you only have 3 of at that level, which means you can, at maximum if you only use your 3rd-level spell slots for this purpose, cast non-concentration Summon Fey 4 times a day. Twilight Cleric gets Twilight Sanctuary at level 2 and gets 2 uses per short rest of it at level 6, and it doesn't take spell slots.

Third, fey summoned by Summon Fey can be killed much more easily than a Twilight Cleric can be.

Fourth, it takes 4 rounds to spam Summon Fey to get all uses of it out at once (and this is taking all of your 3rd-level spell slots for the day), when Twilight Sanctuary only takes one action to activate. A typical combat only lasts 3-5 rounds, so while the Fey Wanderer is spending their time Pokemon-ing as much as possible, the Twilight Cleric will be casting Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, healing spells, and so on. A Twilight Cleric can get much more accomplished in the four rounds that it takes the Fey Wanderer to reach their full potential than the Fey Wanderer will.

Fifth, you're completely ignoring that the Twilight Cleric has more features than just Twilight Sanctuary. They'll also be using Divine Strike, their flight, their advantage on initiative feature, their domain spells, and possibly even their Divine Intervention, while the Feywander that chooses to just spam Summon Fey will be doing that and only that during combat. Even if the Fey Wanderer at level 11 can kind-of keep up buff-wise with the Twilight Cleric through the Fey Reinforcement feature, the Twilight Cleric will be overall more effective in the game because they won't be solely focusing on combat.

 

[NaturalZero]

The party I'm in right now (with the rune knight!) also has a twilight cleric. The DM generally creates monsters that can do damage to almost everyone on the board every round to negate the benefits of high AC (multiple AOEs with half damage on a save) and the amount of effective healing that temp HPs provide when 5 people are going through them every round is very, very significant, especially since it doesn't take up daily spell slots.

If a party of 5 each go through 5 hp every round for 3 rounds, that's the equivalent of 75 points of healing, without spending an Action or even using a spell slot. The only way that kind of ability is not super duper extra powerful is when you're running a party that just does not take damage.

 

[ECMO3]

I am talking from experience., and you are right about a Fey wanderer being at level 11. But that is not everything such a character has either. A Fey wanderer is typically walking around with about 50 goodberries has extra attack and a ton of hps before any spell boosts.

Third, fey summoned by Summon Fey can be killed much more easily than a Twilight Cleric can be.

The Fey are not easier to kill because they can not be harmed by the enemies that are charmed and their mobility and teleport makes it unlikely they will end their turn within reach of an enemy that isn't charmed. Sure an uncharmed enemy can kite across the battlefield to try and engage them .... assuming they are not also suffering from a fear effect due to beguiling twist ..... or engage them with missiles, but that is far from easy to do.

Every enemy the Fey charm is an enemy that can't attack that Fey for the entire fight until someone damages it. This is key, there is no "save every turn" against this.

I am not saying they are impossible to kill, but they are not easier to kill.

Fourth, it takes 4 rounds to spam Summon Fey to get all uses of it out at once (and this is taking all of your 3rd-level spell slots for the day), when Twilight Sanctuary only takes one action to activate. A typical combat only lasts 3-5 rounds, so while the Fey Wanderer is spending their time Pokemon-ing as much as possible, the Twilight Cleric will be casting Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, healing spells, and so on. A Twilight Cleric can get much more accomplished in the four rounds that it takes the Fey Wanderer to reach their full potential than the Fey Wanderer will.

This is not true. Fey can attack and do a charm right after it is summoned, so there is no loss in action economy, right from the first turn he is equal or ahead on action economy. This is why it is so much better, he is not wasting turns doing nothing and he can keep increasing the amount he is doing per turn.

Assuming she is not concentrating on a Fey already before the fight; in the first 4 turns, those Fey will have made 10 attacks and cast charm on 10 enemies (1 on the 1st, 2 on the 2nd, 3 on the 3rd, 4 on the 4th) and the Ranger would have twisted up to one charm a turn that was saved against into fear.

This compares with 8 attacks and 0 charms the Ranger would have made if he took the attack action instead every turn.
Now you are correct this is a Nova battle for the Ranger, but the point is he can get this all out in 4 turns and those are not wasted turns, right from the first turn he is ahead of his normal output (considering an attack and a save or suck) and he is beating it thoroughly every turn after the first. An 11th level cleric is a full caster and absolutely can keep up over the course of a day, where the Ranger will have to fall back on more mundane martial abilities for every other fight.

With average rolls the Ranger and his Fey have charmed probably about 8 enemies, have one suffering from fear and has done around 100 points of damage over 4 turns. In the first 2 turns he has probably charmed 2 and done 30 points of damage.

The Cleric won't be able to keep up over the course of one battle though. The cleric you used as an example for his first two turns (TS/SG) has done no damage to the enemy at all by the end of his second turn. His temp hps first came online intially when the characters were presumably near full. Spirit Guardians is decent DPR, but it is concentration, doesn't take effect until the enemies turn and requires the cleric to be near the front where it is unlikely to last more than 2 or 3 turns. Over the course of 4 turns the amount the cleric has dealt and provided can vary a lot based on positioning and numbers but I would say average numbers over 4 turns (CD/SG/SW/Healing) are about 70 temp hps (40 on the 1st turn), about 50 damage from SG and SW and whatever he healed on the 4th turn.

 

[ECMO3]

Fifth, you're completely ignoring that the Twilight Cleric has more features than just Twilight Sanctuary. They'll also be using Divine Strike, their flight, their advantage on initiative feature, their domain spells, and possibly even their Divine Intervention, while the Feywander that chooses to just spam Summon Fey will be doing that and only that during combat. Even if the Fey Wanderer at level 11 can kind-of keep up buff-wise with the Twilight Cleric through the Fey Reinforcement feature, the Twilight Cleric will be overall more effective in the game because they won't be solely focusing on combat.

If they are all within 30 feet and if they are all damaged every turn sure. IME it is usually a low AC tank that benefits most from TS. Other characters do if/when they get hit (or disabled) but most turns in a party of 5 you are not going to have all of them taking damage every turn.

A Fey Wanderer can't keep up buff wise, but he is extremely disruptive able able to do a lot of damage and exercise a lot of control. They can sideline enemies for an entire fight with Charm, positioning and frightened effects and in terms of volume in a large fight they can take multiple enemies out of it or severely limit their actions. In a small fight they can have have 3 frightened effects and one or more charm effects running on a single enemy. His movement is extremely limited due to the frightened, he can't attack the Ranger or the Charmer and if he somehow manages to attack someone else it is with disadvantage. The enemies have trouble doing damage because they can't attack the charmer and can't get to anyone else.

Take a Dragon for example. With help from a wizard or cleric you can usually burn through his legendaries in one turn. If he tries dragonfear turn it back on him and he can't approach the party. You and everyone who goes after him in the intiative order attack him and then the Fey charm him again. Have the Fey end their turn close to the party members and he can't use his breath weapon (can't harm charmer). When he saves against a charm (and he gets hit with multiple a turn) throw another frightened on him so you have multiple instances of frightened running too and he needs to make more than one save to break the frightened condition.

This is one example against a big boss, but there are a lot of examples like this. I did not realize this until we played with one. We have an enchanter in the party too and there is a ton of synergy there that would not be there with a different class presumably.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am talking from experience., and you are right about a Fey wanderer being at level 11. But that is not everything such a character has either. A Fey wanderer is typically walking around with about 50 goodberries has extra attack and a ton of hps before any spell boosts.


The Fey are not easier to kill because they can not be harmed by the enemies that are charmed and their mobility and teleport makes it unlikely they will end their turn within reach of an enemy that isn't charmed. Sure an uncharmed enemy can kite across the battlefield to try and engage them .... assuming they are not also suffering from a fear effect due to beguiling twist ..... or engage them with missiles, but that is far from easy to do.

Every enemy the Fey charm is an enemy that can't attack that Fey for the entire fight until someone damages it. This is key, there is no "save every turn" against this.

I am not saying they are impossible to kill, but they are not easier to kill.



This is not true. Fey can attack and do a charm right after it is summoned, so there is no loss in action economy, right from the first turn he is equal or ahead on action economy. This is why it is so much better, he is not wasting turns doing nothing and he can keep increasing the amount he is doing per turn.

Assuming she is not concentrating on a Fey already before the fight; in the first 4 turns, those Fey will have made 10 attacks and cast charm on 10 enemies (1 on the 1st, 2 on the 2nd, 3 on the 3rd, 4 on the 4th) and the Ranger would have twisted up to one charm a turn that was saved against into fear.

This compares with 8 attacks and 0 charms the Ranger would have made if he took the attack action instead every turn.
Now you are correct this is a Nova battle for the Ranger, but the point is he can get this all out in 4 turns and those are not wasted turns, right from the first turn he is ahead of his normal output (considering an attack and a save or suck) and he is beating it thoroughly every turn after the first. An 11th level cleric is a full caster and absolutely can keep up over the course of a day, where the Ranger will have to fall back on more mundane martial abilities for every other fight.

With average rolls the Ranger and his Fey have charmed probably about 8 enemies, have one suffering from fear and has done around 100 points of damage over 4 turns. In the first 2 turns he has probably charmed 2 and done 30 points of damage.

The Cleric won't be able to keep up over the course of one battle though. The cleric you used as an example for his first two turns (TS/SG) has done no damage to the enemy at all by the end of his second turn. His temp hps first came online intially when the characters were presumably near full. Spirit Guardians is decent DPR, but it is concentration, doesn't take effect until the enemies turn and requires the cleric to be near the front where it is unlikely to last more than 2 or 3 turns. Over the course of 4 turns the amount the cleric has dealt and provided can vary a lot based on positioning and numbers but I would say average numbers over 4 turns (CD/SG/SW/Healing) are about 80 temp hps (half on the 1st turn), about 50 damage from SG and SW plus some from a cantrip or attack on the 3rd turn, and whatever he healed on the 4th turn.

The fey wanderer is great, but 1 minute is very short so a good tactic is just teleport away and let the time pass. Kill the ranger afterwards.

My only beef woth the twilight cleric is that the thp do not disappear at the end of the duration. Otherwise the ability falls in line with other very powerful channel divinities.

 

[ECMO3]

The fey wanderer is great, but 1 minute is very short so a good tactic is just teleport away and let the time pass. Kill the ranger afterwards.

If you can teleport and wait it out, you can do the same thing to counter twilight sanctuary and renewing hps every turn.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you can teleport and wait it out, you can do the same thing to counter twilight sanctuary and renewing hps every turn.

No you can't, because you retain temp hp after the duration.
As I said before, that ist the only thing I consider slightly OP.

But I still think every single combo is well within what I consider balanced. Ranging from 4e Monks to crossbow expert snipers.
It is just that some combinations are not really fun. That includes the PHB ranger and the 4e monk. Not because they are far below expectations but suffer from abilities that play not well with each other or even against each other.

 

[ECMO3]

nm

 

[UngeheuerLich]

nm

More probably 5 or 6 + level.

 

[Ancalagon]

In the same game, the party was hit by an Evard's Black Tentacle, cast by an unseen mage (so you couldn't just hit the mage to break concentration). Most of the party failed their save and were caught. This was a big problem....

except no, not really, because it does 3d6 dmg/round, and the temp hp of 1d6+6 almost negated it. The urgency was almost entirely removed.