D&D 5E Was the Rune Knight (in Tasha's) "over-nerfed"?

[Paul Farquhar]

Was it because it basically took 2 rounds to "get going"?

Activating runes is a "once per short rest (upgrades to twice)". Activating Giant's Might is 2+ per long rest. Using both in every fight is a bit extravagant, and I expect not intended in a standard adventuring day. But Giant's Might is a bonus action, and the runes vary, some are reactions, some are bonus actions, some are part of an attack. It's only really one combo - Giant's Might + Hill Giant that takes "two rounds to get going". That this is the one everyone is talking about suggests it needs the slow start to balance it's power.

In actual play you should have some idea if you expect to be taking heavy damage or not, and therefore if you want to use the Hill rune. Potentially you might get more damage mitigation from the fire or stone runes.

One curious feature: Giant's Might works with ranged attacks.

 

[Ancalagon]

One curious feature: Giant's Might works with ranged attacks.

Huh. If you started chucking boulders....

 

[Azuresun]

I "care" because it's a foreshadowing of what is to come... but you are 100% right that it's not worth getting too invested in it.

It seems that about 99% of the hate for TCoE comes from people angry that their UA-based "build" got nerfed. They'd have been so much happier if they'd never looked at the UA version.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Huh. If you started chucking boulders....

I suppose your bow grows to giant size and shoots giant arrows.

Mechanically, a Rune Knight archer is a strong option.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It seems that about 99% of the hate for TCoE comes from people angry that their UA-based "build" got nerfed. They'd have been so much happier if they'd never looked at the UA version.

It's been stated several times that UA is pre-balance pass. If it's strong it's pretty much inevitable that the final version will be less strong. Caveat emptor.

 

[EnderAsha]

People saying TCoE doesn't have power creep I think is a bit short sighted. I love the book don't get me wrong and I'll play a lot of what's in it but from the optimizing community the following things stand out:
-Twilight Cleric, I don't think why this domain is super powerful requires much explanation. It has anything you'd ever want all in one
-Watcher Paladin, combat at Tier 2, moreso at 3 is typically only a few rounds. Monsters hit like trucks and typically it is a kill it before it kills you scenario. Giving the whole part an initiative bonus is potent. Couple that with usual paladin awesomeness and a channel divinity that is very potent and some good spells known it's a great sub class
-Sorcerer's spells known - new subclasses coming with 11 more spells known than a normal sorcerer sub class is...strange? I think the fact that Clockwork is very good coupled with the added spells makes for a rather potent disparity. I think people should consider homebrewing spells known lists for the older sub-classes
-Bladesinger, not huge creep necessarily but this class definitely got a nice boost working with Vuman and the cantrip as attack

Custom Lineage is really good but is only a little OP at levels 1-3 or with tables that roll stats. Taking your 15 to a 17 with point buy then taking a caster stat half feat, many of those from Tasha's are nice, gives you 18 at level 1 which is something no other race can do. A race option giving you +3 in your main stat with perks is not something to be discounted especially snagging a nice level 1 spell like Gift of Alacrity. If you roll, and get an 18 you can take it to 20 and get a feat. While a 20 for a stat rolled character can be done by many races it is an interesting twist to snag the feat as well. This will help optimized builds that are VERY feat dependent.

I'm getting ready to play a level 8 Rune Knight tank using great swords with Storm and two of Hill/Cloud/Fire runes. I plan to carry around a large sized great sword with me so when I grow in size I can weild it. The class is very strong, easily on par with Echo Knight and Battlemaster but from what I can tell the slowness in getting going hurts it. Not being able to really use GWM, Shield Master, Polearm Master, or Dual Weilding bonus attack for 1-3 rounds in combat if you're ramping up does put you back a bit and mess with synergy. They're very clogged up on bonus actions and reactions. Some might point to having tons of options as good. I agree. I love having tons of things to do, but the balance is everything will compete so you need to choose wisely.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So a couple of thought I have in terms of adjusting the rune knight.

1) I don't like the crossover between the fighter and barbarian rage. I also don't agree with the runes being level-gated. They should all be within the same relative power scale. So here are a couple of the runes I have re-worked.

Frost Rune. This rune's magic evokes the might of those who survive in the wintry wilderness, such as frost giants. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, you have advantage on Animal Handling and Intimidation checks.

In addition, you can invoke the rune as a bonus action to increase your sturdiness. For 10 minutes, you gain a bonus to all ability checks and saving throws that use Strength or Constitution. This bonus is equal to your proficiency bonus. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Hill Rune. This rune's magic bestows a resilience reminiscent of a hill giant. While wearing or carrying an object that bears this rune, you have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance against poison damage.

In addition, you can invoke the rune as a bonus action. For the next minute, you reduce any damage you take by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Changes: So I buffed the Frost Rune a bit to raise it on par with the other runes. I also adjusted the Hill Rune to be more similar to the Heavy Armor Master feat than barbarian rage.

***

2) I also feel like the Runic Shield ability is a bit too similar to the Storm Rune. I also think the Storm Rune is a bit too powerful. Additionally, as others have noted, the limit with bonus actions does cause the Rune Knight to take a bit to get going. So below is my proposed swap for Runic Shield and my adjustment to the Storm Rune.

Runic Growth
7th-level Rune Knight feature

Whenever you activate one of your runes, you can also activate your Giant’s Might feature with the same action.

Storm Rune. Using this rune, you can glimpse the future like a storm giant seer. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, you have advantage on Arcana checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you aren't incapacitated.

In addition, you can invoke the rune as a bonus action to enter a prophetic state for 1 minute or until you're incapacitated. Until the state ends, when you or another creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, a saving throw, or an ability check, you can use your reaction to increase or decrease the roll by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

***

3) This is more of a minor gripe, but I feel like Giant's Might should recharge on a short rest mechanic rather than a long rest one. This is not a long rest based archetype. I also don't like the idea of granting these kinds of abilities based on proficiency bonus. I like multiclassing, and while I think some abilities should continue to scale regardless of how the character advances, this is not one of them. So I would change Giant's Might to be useable twice per short rest.

4) Runic Juggernaut seems a bit meh considering it is the capstone for the archetype. So I added that the duration of Giant's Might increases to 1 hour, and can be ended early by using a bonus action.

 

[Phion]

I find it odd that a lot of people are saying the rune knight has been nerfed (except for the fact you need to be level 7 to access storm and hill rune; seems fair to stop level dipping and preventing things like a rogue having a minute straight of sneak attack through advantage)

In fact a lot of it can be argued to be a buff.
1.Stone rune now gives darkvision 120 feet rather than 60-90. Also stone reaction now does not end on damage being taken; this means they are incapacitated and therefore can be hit numerous times for a number of crits (combine with storm rune to cause them to have disadvantage at the end of their turns on save to break out).
2. Fire rune now does 2d6 damage regardless if they save, you can as invoke it on a crit to do 4d6.
3.Ice Rune you now get +2 on strength checks (athletics) and con (useful for harsh environments). Personal opinion but I would rather knock an enemy prone with my +2 and give myself and party advantage then deal a simple 1 extra damage.
4. Giant might can now be used up to 6 times as it goes off proficiency in contrast to 2 times
5. Runic shield can be used to stop crits..... this is so much better....you want your ability scores to be higher for pretty much everything else compared to int as a fighter.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Ugh, half my post got cut off. I've added my thoughts regarding Runic Shield and how often Giant's Might should be used and reset.

Edit: I also added a proposed adjustment to the Storm Rune and Runic Juggernaut features.

 

[Delazar]

I'm getting ready to play a level 8 Rune Knight tank using great swords with Storm and two of Hill/Cloud/Fire runes. I plan to carry around a large sized great sword with me so when I grow in size I can weild it.

would that work, though? I understand the logic of it, and I blame the rules for the wonky way they handle different sized weapons (see Enlarge, or even Rune Knight with the pesky 1d6 bonus damage 1/turn, pfff), but I’m guessing some DMs will not go for it.

I mean, it really does makes complete sense to bring an oversized weapon with you for double die damage, why didn’t they just write it like this?!

I wonder what the ruling is in AL