Where are the rapiers?

OT: I'm sorry to see that the graphics for D&DI suck that badly.

Back on: I think "superior" is the new word for "exotic," and "military" the new word for "martial" (presumably to avoid confusion with martial classes).
 

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heirodule said:
Rapiers are on the DDI screenshots, as "Superior Weapons"

from here

Screen stretching makes Monitor Mouse sad. :(

Monitor Mouse says "Please don't stretch my screen anymore."

You don't want to make Monitor Mouse cry, do you? Do you?!
 

Wormwood said:
Eh, Katanas are fine.

On the other hand, that glaive? That's pretty effin' METAL.

I definitely approve.
It needs to be scaled a bit. There's no way that dude with the silly hair can hold the glaive with a haft that thick.
 

Rapiers were mainly developed as side arms, you didn't see many soldiers entering the field with a rapier in hand. The exception were sometimes cavalry but they often used pistols. About rapiers and plate mail: Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden was killed by a cuirassier who used a rapier. This was in the 1630s.
The cuirassiers were the last of the armored cavalry to be used on the battle field. Their armor + weapons weighed about 140 pounds and covered the entire body. So rapiers and plate armour have existed in the same time.

Also, one handed swords were generally not meant to be used against plate armour at all. A stabbing sword may have a better chance of piercing at the joints of plate armour than a wider sword but it's not something most people waged their lives on. The standard tactics against heavy plate were two handed weapons, fire arms, wrestling + daggers or numerior superiority (plus wrestling and daggers).

All in all, people payed humongous amounts of cash for those armours because they worked. If a hobo with a rapier could take down a wearer of full plate by piercing a joint, noone would use plate.

The armours of the cuirassiers shouldn't be confused with the tournament armours. When people think of armours you can't move in, they generally think about the armours that were just used in formalized jousts and not in combat.

As for chain vs rapier: the one wearing the chain would have a defenitive edge. The main factor against chain mails in the age of rapiers was an issue of cost. Most battles were decided by pole arms and fire arms and chain is not a very good protection against any of them. On a "private" level, people used chain shirts into the 19th century if they were afraid of being knifed or stabbed by swords.
 

got your rapier right here...

12jc3.jpg
 


Rapiers are ineffective against armor. If you want to stab through joints in armor, you use a good, stout blade with a diamond-shaped cross-section, probably in a half-sword grip. With a rapier, you're going to be dead long, long before you manage to prize the blasted flexible thing through a joint. If you can.

The very word "rapier" is thought by many historians to come from "ropera," "robe," that is, a sword which is worn in civilian life for personal defense and duelling. It's fine for puncturing cloth and murdering some other fop over a prostitute, but it's too light and flexible and limited for real combat.

Gustavus Adolphus -- who, like all his contemporaries, used a broadsword on the battlefield (with a basket hilt, hence the confusion with the peacetime rapier) -- was badly injured at Lutzen by sword thrusts because he didn't wear armor. It weighed on his shoulder, where a musket ball acquired in Poland was permanently lodged in the muscle, close enough to an artery so they were afraid to remove it. The Imperial cuirassiers who had brought him down shot him in the head with a pistol when it looked it like Swedish troops were about to advance over that area of the battlefield.

That same Gustavus Adolphus, immediately before the battle, told his cavalry that it was "useless" to stab at the heavily-armored cuirassiers even with their broadswords (never mind the flabby rapiers). Instead, he recommended thrusting the blade into the chest of the cuirassier's horse and twisting with it to rip the wound open, causing the horse to fall on the cuirassier.

That tactic also didn't work, because the Imperial cavalry absolutely mauled the Swedish cavalry, and as an English eyewitness serving in the Swedish army wrote home to his father, ".... had not our foot [infantry] stood like a wall, not a man of us would have come off alive ...."

(See, in particular, "The Army of Gustavus Adolphus," books 1 & 2, by Richard Brzezinksi, and "Gustavus Adolphus" by Theodore Dodge.)
 

I'll admit that while it is my favourite sword, my history of it is somewhat dodgy... So, Carnivorous_Bean how effective then was the side-sword/cut-and-thrust sword in actual combat?

Since it was slightly shorter and stronger then the rapier as well as having a cutting edge with the point? Wondering since the side-sword did evolve into the rapier in many regards.
 

hong said:
Anyone who's played Soul Calibur will know that rapiers and plate armour existed at the same time.

Annoy A Bitch
Raphael Cheese 1
Your enemy has no answer for your attacks.

At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a rapier.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Infinite follow up attacks.
 

Carnivorous_Bean said:
Rapiers are ineffective against armor. If you want to stab through joints in armor, you use a good, stout blade with a diamond-shaped cross-section, probably in a half-sword grip. With a rapier, you're going to be dead long, long before you manage to prize the blasted flexible thing through a joint. If you can.
It might be worth keeping in mind here, though, that "rapier" isn't necessarily referring specifically to the historic unarmored fencing weapon, but more likely (as with all D&D weapons) to a general class of slender-bladed stabby weapons. Call them estocs or tucks if you prefer. In fact, I'd suggest that the actual post-1580s rapier would just never show up in a D&D game. Assume it's shorthand for estoc (or sword-rapier) and have done with.
 

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