Why Convert to d20?

[TeeSeeJay]

In this thread, evildmguy wrote:

As to the thread, I still don't want to see a d20 Shadowrun. I am *sick* of everyone asking for their favorite or old games to be converted to d20. Maybe that's because I don't think d20 is the end all be all game mechanic that lots of people seem to think it is.

I also don't understand the desire for every system to have a d20 conversion. To me, one of the following criteria must be met for an existing game to benefit from a d20 conversion:

1. An out-of-print, unsupported, or otherwise dead system that would benefit from the ability to "plug-in" the d20 content that is becoming so widely available. Shadowrun is the opposite of this; it is still a current game with official support and new product.

2. A system that was a great concept but horribly implemented, that would benefit from a new core mechanic. Was Deadlands so crippled by its gameplay that it needed to be made d20?

3. The original game was not d20, but new products/support items/version IS d20. Older products have significant game value and would benefit from conversion. I'm thinking CoC, Star Wars, and D&D are d20 games with a library of previous work that's still useful.

What other reasons can you think of that would actually merit a d20 conversion? What games would be good examples of those two criteria?

To further the discussion, here's HORRIBLE reasons for a d20 conversion: For the Hell of it/Just Because/so it can cater to the lowest common denominator. I mean, why go through all the effort?

Maybe you've all discussed this at length already. But it's not as if I can use the search function

 

[Sagan Darkside]

What other reasons can you think of that would actually merit a d20 conversion?

My players are very casual- it took a couple of years for them all to even own the PH.

Since learning d20 was enough for them- it would be nice as a dm to have the option of exploring other genre/settings without going through the turmoil of teaching them another system.

Of course this may fall under your "lowest common denominator" comment, but if it does- then you were not worth this initial response if you are insulting my players.

SD

 

[Vigilance]

Well, I like to customize my games, borrowing rules from lots of different sources. However, I dont like to spend 30 hours a week preparing my weekly game.

So for that reason, I gravitate to the "universal" systems, such as d20, Hero, and GURPs. If I like the weapons combat in d20 modern, and the robots from Metal Gods, and the races from Forgotten Realms, I can put them all in a pot with little effort.

Oh and by the way. Thanks for labeling all d20 fans as "the lowest common denominator".

We appreciate it

 

[TeeSeeJay]

Re: Re: Why Convert to d20?

My players are very casual- it took a couple of years for them all to even own the PH.

Since learning d20 was enough for them- it would be nice as a dm to have the option of exploring other genre/settings without going through the turmoil of teaching them another system.

Of course this may fall under your "lowest common denominator" comment, but if it does- then you were not worth this initial response if you are insulting my players.

SD

Don't make the assumption that "lowest common denominator" is a disparaging label or a veiled insult.

So let's say your players are comfortable with the d20 system in general, the D&D system in particular. You want to try something new, maybe you pick up a scifi sourcebook for some other game, and you want to try that out. After sifting through all the conversion effort to come up with d20-compatible classes, feats, skills, equipment and vehicles, and relating all that info to your players, is that really easier than simply teaching them a new system?

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Why Convert to d20?

After sifting through all the conversion effort to come up with d20-compatible classes, feats, skills, equipment and vehicles, and relating all that info to your players, is that really easier than simply teaching them a new system?

Heck no. I have enough work to run a game.

That is why I liked seeing official conversions or unofficial ones done by others.

The matter goes beyond what is easiest. It goes on the level of the nature of my players- the know d20. They like d20. They are not interested in learning another game.

They are more then willing to try out different genre/settings- we are currently playing spycraft and a pulp (ugh) d20 modern.

SD

 

[Malacoda]

2. A system that was a great concept but horribly implemented, that would benefit from a new core mechanic. Was Deadlands so crippled by its gameplay that it needed to be made d20?

Does it have to be "crippled?" I didn't think the Deadlands mechanic was "horribly implemented," but I certainly did think much of it. So, I would much rather have a d20 version, if I was inclined to play the game. Not sure why that is a problem.

What other reasons can you think of that would actually merit a d20 conversion? What games would be good examples of those two criteria?

Any game that has mechanics I don't particularly like, that would work reasonably well via d20. That is good enough for me.

To further the discussion, here's HORRIBLE reasons for a d20 conversion: For the Hell of it/Just Because/so it can cater to the lowest common denominator. I mean, why go through all the effort?

Not everyone approaches the hobby the same way. Some people are entertained by such explorations. They enjoy tinkering with rules and fiddling with games, and converting one set of rules to another is the ultimate tinkering. Why go through all that effort? Because they think it is fun!

Besides, there is another reason: if a system is converted to d20, you possibly open up the game to a more broad range of support. There is a ton of d20 stuff out there, and some games aren't supported that well, or aren't supported in the same way.

And finally, some people find a rule set that just absolutely does it for them. Just ask some GURPS or Hero fans. They really like a set of mechanics and see no reason to play games with other mechanics, unless their chosen rules simply don't handle it well at all.

 

[Malacoda]

Re: Re: Re: Why Convert to d20?

So let's say your players are comfortable with the d20 system in general, the D&D system in particular. You want to try something new, maybe you pick up a scifi sourcebook for some other game, and you want to try that out. After sifting through all the conversion effort to come up with d20-compatible classes, feats, skills, equipment and vehicles, and relating all that info to your players, is that really easier than simply teaching them a new system?

Whether or not it is easier is not important to everyone. For some people, the work involved is secondary. They want to play a given game with a given set of rules, and are willing to go through the effort of conversion. They feel the ratio of work to payoff is worth it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Why not convert to d20? It's all subjective. Some people want to play a certain way, while others want to play another way. People don't have to switch systems if they already have the game - a conversion to d20 will not strike the original books blank.

 

[Petrosian]

first off, i do not count myself amoung the "everything should convert" crowd.

i tend to agree with the basic cases defined in the original post.however i will add just a few more.

1. better for novices.

1a. With the main rules in the online for free SRDs, pretty much anyone can get into a d20 game with a reasonable rules grasp (adjustments for campaign specific and genre specific notwithstanding) for no investment. This means they can reasonably TRY the game before spending money. A player cannot effectively do that with say HERO or Vampire.

1b. The system mechanics are straightforward and directly intuitive with little 'systemisms" getting in the newbie way. ROLL+STAT+Skill to beat a Dc is the most readily absorbed resolution system by new players in my experience. it definitely beats the divide this by 5 and pay this at 2 for +1 and this is +1 too but costs 5 etc we see in HERO. Dice Pools (vampire) are as simple to grasp but the probabilities can be harder to understand and predict, particularly if not only the size of pool but also the difficulty vary by circumstance.

The above combine to get the newbie quickly beyond the system and into the play, without a lot of work on their part.

2. Easier on the GM. This is pretty much one item but it covers a lot. There is a substantial focus in the various d20s (Fantasy, modern and MnM) towards making the game play the way you play. measurements are in 5' increments which is a whole lot better than "inches" where "inches" means "2 meters". With everything based on 1d20 for success/failure, it is easy for even a non-math major to figure out that +1 is 1 more in 20, whereas a 3d6 roll gives a +1 a variable amount, from maybe 5% to as much as 12.5% and so on. The subdivision of abilities into four basic categories: characteristics, skills, feats and other gives plenty of differentiation without too much overlap. Finally, we now have 3 different damage systems, each with its own strengths and weaknesses developed for this basic core system (HP, VP, and the damage save) allowing the Gm a whole lot of choice and control over damage and how his system feels. The additional elemnts of diaing the right level for MD makes the HP method even more robust and flexible.

these tools to me have been VERy user friendly as a GM and even though i was in the process of developing my own fantasy system, after seeing MnM I am almost certainly dropping that for a d20esque system with customizations.

D20 is at its core a very simple and modular system, with varying levels of complexity and specificity detailed in its various supported products. It is to me the most USER FRIENDLY system on the market right now.

I think many a game can do worse than buying into that user friendly structure.

On the other hand... non-games... like HERO... who have a system but no game... cannot benefit much at all. they are marketting their process and as such cannot seriously benefit from another process version.

 

[Hollywood]

D20 is at its core a very simple and modular system, with varying levels of complexity and specificity detailed in its various supported products. It is to me the most USER FRIENDLY system on the market right now.

I'd have to disagree by comments made by other members of my group. d20 is neither a simple system nor is it at the core modular, i.e. the hit point, class and level system don't work well for every type of game. Take M&M, its similiar to d20 because its OGL'd but at the same time it plays fairly differently due to its differences. Thankfully M&M is OGL and not d20 so it can do some different things, but in essense once you move away from strict d20 rules set you are learning a new game.

I think many a game can do worse than buying into that user friendly structure.

Sure it can, look at StarWars. I personally think it lost in the conversion to d20.

d20 is not the end-all-be-all of systems that it needs everything converted to it. And when you do, you essentially are catering to the "lowest common denominator" since D&D is one of the most recognizable brands and more than likely most gamers have played one or two games of it.

There is a line here, I mean come on... should Monopoly get revised to use the d20 rules just because some D&D and d20 Modern players don't want to learn new rules? Maybe the NFL should think of revising its rules? Extreme examples to be sure, but variety is the spice of life.

Thankfully companies, like Green Ronin, that have produced a lot of d20 material are still producing new games and material that uses their own systems.