Why do we really need HP to represent things other than physical injuries?

[Fanaelialae]

Because it's magic? No, seriously that was one of the "hp as meat" things pemerton mentioned. I'd like to get it fixed, but it isn't difficult.



I should have qualified: 4e makes all hp loss that isn't immediately lethal (work as if it is) non-physical.



I'm sorry for quoting myself, but this is why I don't think abstract 4e style hp make sense:



In 4e I simply cannot describe damage consistently, unless I assume that no damage is physical, except that which kills a character (and even that isn't known before death saves).

Of course you can, and I already explained how in my previous post.

Sir Fighter is struck by the ogre's club, sending him sprawling. Stars dance in front of his eyes. He wonders if this is the end, as he struggles to catch his breath. But then he hears the Warlord's voice cutting through the din, taunting him, asking him if he plans to sleep all day, and fighting through the pain Sir Fighter forces himself back to his feet. After the fight, Sir Fighter peels his chestplate off to reveal that his chest is a mass of purple bruising that even the uncaring Rogue winces at. Nothing to worry about, Fighter reassures his party, a little bruise isn't going to slow him down.

You can heap as many injuries on the character as you like in 4e. What you have to remember is that if he receives non-magical healing, you're refilling his "hp tank" with non-meat fuel (meta hp). The physical injuries will of course heal, eventually, by natural means. The thing to keep in mind is that hp are fluid. Mind can triumph over mere matter.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Sir Fighter is struck by the ogre's club, sending him sprawling. Stars dance in front of his eyes. He wonders if this is the end, as he struggles to catch his breath. But then he hears the Warlord's voice cutting through the din, taunting him, asking him if he plans to sleep all day, and fighting through the pain Sir Fighter forces himself back to his feet. After the fight, Sir Fighter peels his chestplate off to reveal that his chest is a mass of purple bruising that even the uncaring Rogue winces at. Nothing to worry about, Fighter reassures his party, a little bruise isn't going to slow him down.

If this is a scene where the character drops into the negatives, but is brought back up, you've described the scene well. But I'd say you didn't describe the wound in-combat.

For example, my players have, on multiple occasions, asked the severity of the wound, and spent actions to assess wounds with skill checks, to see how urgent healing might be. In the example you gave, if someone did that (assess the Fighter's wounds while he's down), what would you tell him? Life threatening, or no? Maybe? If they have a great Heal skill (I use Heal and Assess), are they still unable to get more than a "it looks bad"?

I think that's why some people (including myself) classify it as Schrodinger's wounds, in that you don't know how to describe the wound in-combat. That is, you can describe someone getting hit, but people who should be knowledgeable on the subject (such as trained healers) are often mysteriously unaware of the severity of the wound (because it has yet to be resolved mechanically).

But, I point this out for clarification. I see the issue, but I haven't played 4e. If you have a way to address this, I'm very curious. And I say this in a non-challenging way; I'm curious because if there's a way to do so in a satisfactory way. For example, I believe pemerton uses the Heal skill use of stabilization to "check someone's wounds" as well, basically handwaving it.

I dislike that approach, but he's dealt with the issue I've brought up. I'm curious if you have anything else in mind. As always, play what you like

 

[Fanaelialae]

If this is a scene where the character drops into the negatives, but is brought back up, you've described the scene well. But I'd say you didn't describe the wound in-combat.

For example, my players have, on multiple occasions, asked the severity of the wound, and spent actions to assess wounds with skill checks, to see how urgent healing might be. In the example you gave, if someone did that (assess the Fighter's wounds while he's down), what would you tell him? Life threatening, or no? Maybe? If they have a great Heal skill (I use Heal and Assess), are they still unable to get more than a "it looks bad"?

I think that's why some people (including myself) classify it as Schrodinger's wounds, in that you don't know how to describe the wound in-combat. That is, you can describe someone getting hit, but people who should be knowledgeable on the subject (such as trained healers) are often mysteriously unaware of the severity of the wound (because it has yet to be resolved mechanically).

But, I point this out for clarification. I see the issue, but I haven't played 4e. If you have a way to address this, I'm very curious. And I say this in a non-challenging way; I'm curious because if there's a way to do so in a satisfactory way. For example, I believe pemerton uses the Heal skill use of stabilization to "check someone's wounds" as well, basically handwaving it.

I dislike that approach, but he's dealt with the issue I've brought up. I'm curious if you have anything else in mind. As always, play what you like

I think the idea that a character's teammates would even try to assess his wounds during combat is a bit silly. I mean, granted, a 6 second application of first aid is a silly idea itself, but so is the idea that you could determine the severity of a wound in so short a time. Doctors and surgeons often don't know the true extent of an injury until they take scans or cut in there and take a look for themselves. How does a medieval healer glance at you and know whether you have severe internal bleeding or not?

If someone was bleeding out in front of you, would you poke and prod the injury, trying to assess whether it pierced any organs, or would you try to stop the bleeding and worry about the rest later?

I think it's far more probable that someone who is in a position to examine a teammate's wounds would offer first aid instead of just looking.

Besides, that complaint has a lot more to do with the dying rules than hp. From what I hear (as a result of an NDA violation that was reported here, on ENWorld; the one that wasn't proven to be trolling, that is) PCs who fail a death save in DDN take 1d10 damage. Which pretty much makes the answer to that question, "yeah, Captain Unconscious looks like he could use your help sooner than later."

 

[Alzrius]

I think the idea that a character's teammates would even try to assess his wounds during combat is a bit silly. I mean, granted, a 6 second application of first aid is a silly idea itself, but so is the idea that you could determine the severity of a wound in so short a time. Doctors and surgeons often don't know the true extent of an injury until they take scans or cut in there and take a look for themselves. How does a medieval healer glance at you and know whether you have severe internal bleeding or not?

If someone was bleeding out in front of you, would you poke and prod the injury, trying to assess whether it pierced any organs, or would you try to stop the bleeding and worry about the rest later?

I think it's far more probable that someone who is in a position to examine a teammate's wounds would offer first aid instead of just looking.

This doesn't answer Jameson's question, though (which I thought was a perfectly reasonable one) - it's an attempt to undercut the validity of the question in the first place.

I think that performing triage during a battle is entirely reasonable, particularly if you've got limited healing resources (to say nothing of enemies that are still an immediate threat). There's nothing "silly" about it.

 

[billd91]

In LotR, when Frodo get's tagged by the Cave Troll (in the movie I'm talking about), you cannot do that scene with the HP=Physical Damage model. Frodo dropped, and certainly not from any non-lethal attack. Without a cleric, he bleeds to death most of the time, or, even if he's helped by friends, he's not standing up without serious bedrest.

Of course you can. Frodo takes a significant hit and the player looks at the hit points he has left and role plays being out of the fight to save his own ass rather than getting up to get killed.

In Empire Strikes Back, when the Wampus knocks Luke down and takes him out, you can't have the rest of the scene using 3e style HP mechanics. It doesn't work. Luke either bleeds to death, or, he's conscious but below 0 HP, which means he cannot fight, let alone escape.

Unless that wampa had the ability to KO Luke without him bleeding to death. Or unless you were using the SWSE rules (complete with hit points pretty much exactly like D&D) and he uses his Second Wind (once a day) to recover a little bit and get out of dodge. Of course, even with pure 3e style hit points (and no SWSE second wind), you can still do this. Perhaps Luke had some non-lethal hit point damage from the cold environment. That acts as a pretty good buffer to keep a PC alive when facing substantial damage because it acts like a circuit breaker - the PC goes unconscious but stable without being killed.

You can do a lot with D&D's hit point model.

 

[Hassassin]

Of course you can, and I already explained how in my previous post.

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree. It just isn't as satisfying to me when you know no wound has long term consequences and the characters can push through anything with pure will.

 

[Kingreaper]

With the side effect of making no hp loss physical, since it can always be "healed" without healing.

This is only true if you assume that Healing Surges don't represent anything.

Which isn't the way it's intended, they really do seem to represent woundedness, but is a common enough view.

Hence my suggesting changing them for wounds

 

[Hassassin]

Hence my suggesting changing them for wounds

That could work, but what are its advantages over a (fixed) pre-4e hp system?

I can see that it would mean you enter most encounters with full hp, so the number of wounds only matters once you have too many (what's the limit?) - I personally don't consider this a feature, but some might.

It would let a Warlord return hp, but why is that better than e.g. a Warlord giving out temp hp? In both cases the Warlord only has an effect on short term survival.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I think the idea that a character's teammates would even try to assess his wounds during combat is a bit silly.

I strongly disagree.

I mean, granted, a 6 second application of first aid is a silly idea itself, but so is the idea that you could determine the severity of a wound in so short a time.

I think you could get a good idea. You used a bruise in your example. Is there a ton of blood obvious? Does he look stunned, or does he look completely unconscious? Because if I'm a Warlord, I'm going to being yelling at someone who is merely dazed, not someone who is out cold. And as a Cleric, I'm rushing to heal someone who is unconscious, not merely dazed.

And, if you can make that Heal check in 6 seconds to heal him, why not assess him?

Doctors and surgeons often don't know the true extent of an injury until they take scans or cut in there and take a look for themselves. How does a medieval healer glance at you and know whether you have severe internal bleeding or not?

How do they help in 6 seconds normally? Why allow one to treat a wound as a use of Heal and not merely assess the wound, when assessing the wound is probably the first step in treating it?

If someone was bleeding out in front of you, would you poke and prod the injury, trying to assess whether it pierced any organs, or would you try to stop the bleeding and worry about the rest later?

So, I can tell if someone is bleeding out in front of me, then? Because that's a large step away from the Schrodinger's wounds issue noted above. I know that the guy needs help or he'll die.

I think it's far more probable that someone who is in a position to examine a teammate's wounds would offer first aid instead of just looking.

Not if he's merely stunned (bruised and dazed). I'd like to know the difference in combat, so I can tell my players when they ask. If they're merely dazed and stunned, combat rages on because he'll be fine. If he's bleeding out, he'll get help.

Unfortunately, that question seems hard to answer, because it hasn't been decided yet (death saving throws haven't resolved yet). Thus my question to you about ways to resolve the Schrodinger's wounds issue.

Besides, that complaint has a lot more to do with the dying rules than hp.

Agreed, but it pops up somewhat in other areas. For example, if I get hit by a goblin, is that HP? Did I lose HP by fatiguing myself during the dodge? Am I bleeding, or battered? We need to make sure that whatever we go with, both Cure Light Wounds and the Warlord can heal me.

From what I hear (as a result of an NDA violation that was reported here, on ENWorld; the one that wasn't proven to be trolling, that is) PCs who fail a death save in DDN take 1d10 damage. Which pretty much makes the answer to that question, "yeah, Captain Unconscious looks like he could use your help sooner than later."

Yeah... I have quite a few issues with the current implementation, if that's correct (I read the linked thread). Thanks for pointing that out, though. As always, play what you like

 

[Kingreaper]

That could work, but what are its advantages over a (fixed) pre-4e hp system?

It links healing to the person being healed, not just the healer.

To me, this a plus.

I can see that it would mean you enter most encounters with full hp, so the number of wounds only matters once you have too many (what's the limit?) - I personally don't consider this a feature, but some might.

I'm one of those some. However, it's not really that big a change from having a cleric heal you up in 3.x, in both cases you start all your fights at max HP, the difference is in what you run out of. (healing spells in 3.x, surges in 4e, ability to takes wounds under the wound system)

(what's the limit?)

Well, if looking to replicate 4e exactly, the limit would be, approximately: Surge number*1.5+4. But replicating 4e exactly isn't the aim, so... well, that depends on other features of DDN.

It would let a Warlord return hp, but why is that better than e.g. a Warlord giving out temp hp? In both cases the Warlord only has an effect on short term survival.

Temp HP have a lot of baggage, at least in 4e. They don't stack. They can take you above your max HP, and they're strictly temporary; losing THP doesn't actually fatigue you in any way.

Essentially, if a warlord could give enough THP to absorb the hits from a fight, the fight would have done absolutely nothing to the party's resources. Whereas with surges/wounds, every fight drains at least a small bit off their resilience.