D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[Mistwell]

Spell Versatility does not let you change spells that you get from a Subclass. Spells gained from features like the Divine Soul's Divine Magic, or any Warlock's Expanded Spell List from their Pact are not effected by it (even Mystic Arcanum spells aren't allowed, but that's a different discussion). We can safely ignore those origins when creating an ability that modifies the core Sorcerer Spellcasting by assuming that, while there are multiple different ways to trigger becoming a Sorcerer, being a Sorcerer is a thing that exists independently of however that switch is flipped. Which is the key thing that makes all Sorcerers into the same class to begin with, instead of the Subclasses each being their own unique class. This is backed up by the fact that once you become one type of Sorcerer, you can't also become a different type of Sorcerer, even when meting the requirements for it.

And you could say the same thing with Warlocks.

From the Sorcerer description (not a subclass):

Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces. One can’t study sorcery as one learns a language, any more than one can learn to live a legendary life. No one chooses sorcery; the power chooses the sorcerer.

Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped. Some sorcerers wield magic that springs from an ancient bloodline infused with the magic of dragons. Others carry a raw, uncontrolled magic within them, a chaotic storm that manifests in unexpected ways.

The appearance of sorcerous powers is wildly unpredictable. Some draconic bloodlines produce exactly one sorcerer in every generation, but in other lines of descent every individual is a sorcerer. Most of the time, the talents of sorcery appear as apparent flukes. Some sorcerers can’t name the origin of their power, while others trace it to strange events in their own lives. The touch of a demon, the blessing of a dryad at a baby’s birth, or a taste of the water from a mysterious spring might spark the gift of sorcery. So too might the gift of a deity of magic, exposure to the elemental forces of the Inner Planes or the maddening chaos of Limbo, or a glimpse into the inner workings of reality.

Sorcerers have no use for the spellbooks and ancient tomes of magic lore that wizards rely on, nor do they rely on a patron to grant their spells as warlocks do. By learning to harness and channel their own inborn magic, they can discover new and staggering ways to unleash that power.

That description simply does not mesh with changing your spells overnight. Particularly not given the fact all campaigns thus far have assumed as part of that setting that sorcerers couldn't do that - by definition. I'm going to need some explanation that's better than what's being offered so far.

 

[Mistwell]

So rangers who swap spells on level up have an explanation that sorcerers do not? Or battle masters who swap maneuvers? Or warlocks who swap invocations?

I don't think so. It's a common mechanic to be able to change while leveling.

Its not when leveling though. Its 8 hours.

 

[Ashrym]

Its not when leveling though. Its 8 hours.

It's not 8 hours because there's no incentive to change spell that often. Not to mention it would be 24 hours instead of 8 anyway, although that's nitpick.

When someone takes the spells they think they can they don't change those out. Changing spells is in responses to an incentive, not done simply because it's can be done. Changing every day just because it's possible would be superfluous.

 

[Mistwell]

It's not 8 hours because there's no incentive to change spell that often. Not to mention it would be 24 hours instead of 8 anyway, although that's nitpick.

1. Incentive to change is up to each campaign and player and we can't speak to that in generalizations. 2. It's 8 hours. You can cast spell X at midnight and replace it with something else at 8am. It's 8 hours.

When someone takes the spells they think they can they don't change those out. Changing spells is in responses to an incentive, not done simply because it's can be done. Changing every day just because it's possible would be superfluous.

This is a deeply subjective, campaign and player specific issue. Regardless, I am debating the fluff for how the class functions in that manner, not balance or motivation issues.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I can kind of see a bard. They study and recall different sources of lore, which is an outside source. It's sorcerer that's hanging me up. Their explicit thing is no outside source. I need some better explanation to go along with that ability to switch. I could come up with one, but I'd like the designers to do it.

They are learning them. They stop using one, and as a result they can’t use it without the practice and “study” required to learn a spell. Meanwhile, they practiced a new spell, and have reached a point where it is in their implicit memory to a detailed enough degree they can use it.


(note, study does not require anything outside. The Sorcerer is assumed to experiment, hone what they learn, and form implicit memory for the forms and ritual that becomes their spells)

 

[FrogReaver]

Higher-level spells generally have better area of effect as well as better damage.

More specifically to Wizards, their high number of spells available allows them the range to have spells that target different saves better than any other caster. Creatures are often not proficient in saves and few creatures have an even array of stats, so a prepared caster can generally target a weak save which does not increase by CR.

. . . . And that's before we start considering that wizards do other things better than simply dealing damage.

Against most creatures it's not easy to decide whether to target charisma, constitution, wisdom or intelligence.

Assuming you do know what save to target on a particular creature you also need an effective spell of low enough level that can target that creature's low save. For a number of saves that's not really a very common occurrence.

There's also very few spells that affect a larger area than fireball.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Against most creatures it's not easy to decide whether to target charisma, constitution, wisdom or intelligence.

Sure, but if you manage it they could be saving at no bonus, or even a penalty, instead of +5 or 10.

That puts the advantage you could get swinging the right weapon vs your targets Armor Type in 1e to shame.

 

[Ashrym]

1. Incentive to change is up to each campaign and player and we can't speak to that in generalizations. 2. It's 8 hours. You can cast spell X at midnight and replace it with something else at 8am. It's 8 hours.



This is a deeply subjective, campaign and player specific issue. Regardless, I am debating the fluff for how the class functions in that manner, not balance or motivation issues.

1. Yes we can because there's no such thing as player doesn't start by take the spells he or she wanted in the first place. Once a player has taken those spells he or she is unlikely to not get rid of the spells he or she took. The reasons to change are because of a situational benefit, which is not a standard, or because of respeccing in the case a person is saddled with a spell that is no longer relevant or turned out to be a worse choice than was anticipated, which was the point of allowing the change in the first place.

2. Fair enough because it's technically true, but then you cannot get the spell back you had in the first place for 24 hours. In doing so a person has locked himself or herself into a spell other than he or she actually wanted for a day.

Fluff is relative, I agree. My idea of a sorcerer is met better with this fluff because they actually have typical mage downtime activity options now.

 

[pemerton]

Here's something that I circulated to the players at the start of my 4e campaign in early 2009:

The rules for retraining, swapping in new powers, background feats etc, don’t have to be interpreted as literally meaning that your PC has forgotten how to do things or suddenly learned something new. Feel free to treat this as just emphasising a different aspect of your PC that was always there, but hadn’t yet come up in the course of play.​

I think the same approach could be taken to sorcerer spell-swapping.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but if you manage it they could be saving at no bonus, or even a penalty, instead of +5 or 10.

That puts the advantage you could get swinging the right weapon vs your targets Armor Type in 1e to shame.

I thought we were against comparing to previous editions

The only way I can see the benefit mattering is if the same creatures repeatedly get fought. Otherwise it will be essentially random. Then again, even with the same creatures being fought - the spells aren't identical. It's very possible that using something like hypnotic pattern could be stronger than a spell targeting a lower save because the effects of hypnotic pattern are that much stronger.