D&D General Why ya gotta be so Basic? Understanding the Resurgence of Moldvay's Basic

[Voadam]

Moldvay is great and very clear in most things but a few are still a little ambiguous. Initiative and the order of operations is a bit contradictory.

Page B23

To determine initiative, each side rolls Id6 (the DM
rolls for the monsters). The side with the higher roll may move first
and attack first in combat for that round. If both sides roll the same
number, the DM may either have both sides roll again, or may consider
movement and combat for both sides to occur at the same
time (known as simultaneous combat).
The side "with the initiative" has the first choice of actions. Members
of that side may choose to fight, run, throw a spell, take defensive
positions and wait to see what the other side does, start
talking, or do anything else that the players or DM can imagine.
If combat occurs, the side with the initiative always strikes first in
that round. Both sides should roll for initiative each round. If both
sides tie on their initiative rolls, and combat is simultaneous, it is
possible for both sides to be killed!

Page 24

Combat Sequence
A. Each side rolls for initiative (Id6).
B. The side that wins the initiative acts first (if simultaneous all
actions are performed by each side at the same time):
1. Morale checks, if needed (page B27).
2. Movement per round, meleed opponents may only move
defensively (spell casters may not move and cast spells).
3. Missile fire combat:
a. choose targets
b. roll ld20 to hit; adjust result by Dexterity adjustment,
range, cover, and magic
c. DM rolls damage
4. Magic spells (roll saving throws, as needed: ld20).
5. Melee or hand-to-hand combat:
a. choose (or be attacked by) opponents
b. roll ld20 to hit; adjust result by Strength adjustment and
magic weapons
c. DM rolls damage; adjust result by Strength adjustment
and magic weapons
C. The side with the next highest initiative acts second, and so on
using the order given above, until all sides have completed
melee.

It looks clear that each side goes through their entire sequence then the other side does.

But then the example combat om B28:

In the second round of combat, the party loses the initiative roll.
Another two hobgoblins charge through the doorway. Since
Morgan still has her bow out, she may shoot at the charging
monsters. These start moving from 20' away from her. so the party
has time to get their weapons out. The DM warns Silverleaf that if
he wants to cast any spells this round, the hobgoblins will be able to
attack him before he can do so. Silverleaf decides to get out a
weapon. Morgan rolls a 4 (a miss), and the hobgoblins decide to attack
Fredrik and Morgan.

It also does not clearly say when you declare your actions but from the sample combat it seems after initiative.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It's in DMGR5 Creative Campaigning chapter 3 by none other than Johnathan Tweet of 3E and 13th Age fame goes into great depth of the use of ability checks, how to weigh such checks, and so forth.

Which then makes this the second time it actually shows up (thanks for the references)! I didn't have that particular DMGR book or I almost certainly would have taken note of it.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Which then makes this the second time it actually shows up (thanks for the references)! I didn't have that particular DMGR book or I almost certainly would have taken note of it.

It’s an otherwise fairly useless book honestly. However, that section really opened up my pre-stats teenage mind to bell curves and weighting averages. It’s really good stuff, but honestly it’s just like 3-5 pages in an otherwise terrible book.

 

[Cruentus]

It also does not clearly say when you declare your actions but from the sample combat it seems after initiative.

If you read on under ‘Party Actions’, it says you have to declare those before initiative.

We declare: spellcasting, missile fire, melee and combat movement (full retreat or fighting withdrawal) before Initiative. You can’t change your declaration when it’s your turn to act, but you can choose not to act. At least, that’s how we play it.

 

[overgeeked]

If you read on under ‘Party Actions’, it says you have to declare those before initiative.

We declare: spellcasting, missile fire, melee and combat movement (full retreat or fighting withdrawal) before Initiative. You can’t change your declaration when it’s your turn to act, but you can choose not to act. At least, that’s how we play it.

It’s also one reason to use Old-School Essentials Classic. It’s a cleaned up B/X. Not that there’s a lot to clean up. Just a few odds and ends.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Zeb did the best initiative system ever in 2E and that’s a hill I’ll die on.

B/X and BECMI weren’t particularly bad however. Simple and straightforward, just like the system as a whole. 1E however is a complete mess.

 

[Iosue]

If you read on under ‘Party Actions’, it says you have to declare those before initiative.

It doesn't say that.

PARTY ACTIONS: The first decision a party must make in an encounter is whether to fight, talk, run, or wait to see what the monster will do.
If the party chooses to fight, combat will begin; the DM should use the Combat Sequence (page B24) to handle fights.
If the party chooses to talk (and if the monster will listen), the DM plays the part of the monster. The players can ask questions, make bold statements, and otherwise react to the creature. The encounter may then become peaceful (agreement!), hurried (as the monster or party runs away) or violent (if the talks lead to combat).
If the party chooses to run away, the monster might not follow, in which case the encounter is over. IF the monster decides to chase them, the players must try to outrun it or distract it so that they may escape (see Evasion, page B24).
If the party chooses to wait to see what the monster will do, the DM must decide the monster's reactions.

The PCs perforce cannot declare their combat actions before initiative is rolled the first time, because initiative is rolled before combat is even chosen.

I think what's confusing to people looking back is that it's long been the case in D&D that rolling initiative indicated the start of combat. But that's not how it is in Moldvay Basic. There, initiative is rolled as part of the Order of Events in One Game Turn when monsters are encountered during the turn. Then it is rerolled in subsequent rounds as part of the Combat Sequence, if combat occurs.

So, the party encounters a monster, and neither side is surprised. Initiative is rolled. If the party wins, they can decide whether to fight, talk, run, or wait and see. If the monster wins, the DM chooses or rolls on the reaction table to see if the monster fights, talks, runs, or waits and sees.

If it becomes a fight, then whichever side won initiative gets to go first, and decides their actions.

This was all changed in Mentzer. There, an encounter with a monster was broken out to its own Order of Events:
1. Number appearing
2. Surprise
3. Reactions
4. Results
a. both sides talk
b. one side runs away (go to Evasion and Pursuit)
c. one side attacks (go to Order of Events in Combat)

Mentzer then added an Intentions phase as the first phase of the Order of Events in Combat, where everyone says what they intend to do. Only after that comes Initiative.

 

[Maxperson]

Anyway, let me know what y'all are thinking about Moldvay.

Moldvay grows on you.

 

[Emerikol]

For me, I played in one campaign with the red book, I think it was Moldvay. I fell in love with the game. I moved on though to AD&D mainly because of the modules. My local store had a lot of AD&D modules and no B/X modules.

For me I think the ideal class lineup is Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Elf (F/MU), Dwarf (F/T), Magic User. In the sense that while I don't necessarily want racial classes I do want what those class types to be represented and I don't really want to fool with multiclassing. I've considered making those two classes separate from race but make them exclusive to those races "normally" but a PC could claim they'd been raised by elves or dwarves etc...

 

[Mannahnin]

For me, I played in one campaign with the red book, I think it was Moldvay. I fell in love with the game. I moved on though to AD&D mainly because of the modules. My local store had a lot of AD&D modules and no B/X modules.

For me I think the ideal class lineup is Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Elf (F/MU), Dwarf (F/T), Magic User. In the sense that while I don't necessarily want racial classes I do want what those class types to be represented and I don't really want to fool with multiclassing. I've considered making those two classes separate from race but make them exclusive to those races "normally" but a PC could claim they'd been raised by elves or dwarves etc...

Yeah, the seven D&D classes do make a nice range of archetypes.

Dwarf is of sort-of F/T but also sort of Paladin or Mageslayer or Monster Hunter, with those amazing saving throws.

I've often opined that Halfling is the secret Ranger class in B/X and BECMI, with its bonus to missile attacks, ability to hide in natural surroundings, increased AC against larger than man-sized foes, better saves, and requirement to use lighter weapons.