D&D 5E Wizards Do Suck;)

[Zardnaar]

Wizards don't even get full access to their spell list, they get a truncated selection that, if they're lucky, can expand via found scrolls. Even if they had access to all of their spell list, the issue becomes which spells to prepare. People always talk about "why have X class when a wizard can just cast a spell" but if the wizard doesn't have the spell, say knock, prepared then it doesn't count for anything. Add to that the resource cost of expending a spell slot and I'll bet that any wizard would love to have a rogue available to pick any locks the run into.

Wizards gain a lot of power at high level, except those high level spells are once a day, if you only need those spell slots once a day, great, but if you've used your one 9th level spell and then have another encounter where your one 9th level spell prepared would be super useful, too bad.

I like wizards, probably my favourite class in any edition, but people often make out that they are super powerful (in 5e) when instead, they're just powerful, so long as they have spell slots available and maybe a day to prepare that spell that would be really useful to have right this minute.

Kinda forgot that. They have to find scrolls (rarer in 5E than other editions) or get the DM to sign off on buying access to them (treasure haul and DM dependent).

They're good at rituals but even then worse than tomelocks (who get 3 extra cantrips from any class to boot).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It is like people don't see the subclasses, the versatility and the unique niche as The Intelligence class.

Absolutely not a niche. If you think that's a "niche", you need to think harder on what the word means.

Not, they do not have a "unique niche" just because 5E is badly designed and has a zillion CHA classes and one INT class. That's a ridiculous and risible idea. It's clearly not even intentional, especially as WotC tried to give Warlocks back an INT option, and honestly may yet, if they have even an tiny shred of design talent.

Nothing sucks. Sucks would inherently mean they're not fun. They are fun. People have a lot of fun playing wizards. If even a few people report playing wizards and having fun, it means that they do not suck. Simple. As. That.

Absolutely not. That's not rational, it doesn't make sense - in fact it's obviously false - nothing in the world is so bad or weird that some very strange individual doesn't like it. Nothing. There are people who like being tortured. Who like being beaten up. Being suffocated (and I'm not just talking sex stuff). By your obviously spurious and rather insulting "logic", that means, being beaten up or tortured "doesn't suck", because somebody somewhere enjoys it.

It's absolutely not good enough that "a few people" liking a class means the entire game is warped around the terrible design of that class.

You're very obviously type 1 of the two types of Wizard players I noted, btw.

Here I thought wizards were the Batman of D&D. They always having just the right thing prepared for whatever situation arises.

They absolutely used to be, when you prepared every spell you could cast separately, and had vast numbers of spells they could cast too (1/2/3E then - particularly 2E and 3E). But in 5E they don't have that. Wizards can prepare INT mod + Wizard level spells. A higher number than a "known" spells caster, but not that much higher - and exactly the same as other "prepared" casters in 5E.

But nowhere near enough for the old "I have 1 one of pretty much every spell memorized" deal of 2E and 3E utility Wizards.

And yes, no class in 5E sucks so bad it's always unfun, but Wizards have definitely died a death popularity-wise, because style-wise, they've got absolutely nothing. Not an iota of style.

The problem is that Wizards of the Coast haven't got the memo.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I played a diviner and my party was terrified of the things I could do. I think, mostly, because I could cause anyone to fail a roll and I studied a lot of save or suck spells. And magic jar was just fun.

My complaint with wizards was:
1. lots of spells but: a) not enough slots and; b) you had to rely on the dm to get access to any extra
2. Rituals are awesome, too bad there aren't any after 4th level. I always thought it would be a great feature to have a wizard to be able to cast almost any spell as a ritual.
3. The schools lack a lot of flavour. I want a conjuration wizard that CONJURES STUFF and be good at negotiating with Outsiders and fiends instead of just special abilities are just teleporting around. Or a necromancer that can have an undead lieutenant or advisor.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Arcane recovery helps, but sure.

The wizard needs base class features at lower levels, even if they aren’t huge. That has been my main feedback every time they’ve asked about the wizard.

 

[TerraDave]

We do know from the D&D team at WotC that Wizards and their various class options remain relatively popular.

But I guess they suck for some. Fortunately, there are all those other classes.

 

[FrogReaver]

Fire proof suit time. Incoming!!!

In the fine tradition of Bards Do Suck type threads and Wizards are Boring threads I thought I would start a Wizards suck thread.

This is mostly a 5E type thing but I've noticed a distinct lack of Wizards being picked since 3.0. It's become even worse since 5E.

I've had my suspicions why for around 20 years. They take to long to ramp up to their potential power. Not to long ago WotC revealed 70% of games online are level 1-10 and 10% hit level 10 and only 1% are epic levels. A wizards true capstone ability is level 10 not 20.

This also over laps a bit with 4E reception and focus on balance. They "fixed" problems the vast majority of players never experienced.

The Wizards never got to the levels required to really break the game. And casual players never really knew how to break them anyway. They'll just be happy dropping a fireball (which hasn't really been a that good since 2E).

1. I agree that wizards are strongeset in the least played game tiers, but they aren't weak in earlier tiers either.
2. I'm not sure how casual players play a classis the best way to compare their power.

5E wizard has to deal with all of that and compete with the power levels of the charisma based assessment in 5E. It's one redeeming thing assuming one even has the required knowledge to build it is ritual casting and exploration pillar. Tome lock says hi though. Exploration is also the neglected 5E pillar and charisma based classes are a lot better in the social pillar.

3. A tomelock is much worse than a wizard at almost everything else.

Wizards versatility is also over rated along with more spells. Both a mostly hypothetical concepts and a simple twinned spell puts even the most spells claim in doubt. The other classes may not have an many spells true but they can cherry pick the good ones the wizard should be casting anyway.

4. No class has a better 1st and 2nd level spell loadout to prepare than a wizard.

Level 1 Spells: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Sleep, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
Level 2 Spells: Misty Step, Web, Invisibility, Suggestion, Shatter, Rime's Binding Ice, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness

Like I don't even have enough spells I can prepare to prepare all the 'best' wizard spells.

Another example is the invoker vs light cleric. Boh can cast fireball on paper the wizard is better at it. With two short rests though the light cleric is going to have 3-6 uses of radiance of the dawn to use at levels where it matters. The Wizards going to run out of resources first. Replace radiance of the dawn with metamagic, bard dice, other channel divinity options or invocations and you see what I'm talking about. Hell even Druids might give them a run for their money.

5. I have no problem with light clerics. They are strong and blasty and probably a bit blastier than most wizards. But they don't have anywhere near the control and control is normally better than blasty.

Even the saving throws suck
Intelligence is a rare save category and wisdom saves whole proficient use a tertiary stat at best. A Sorcerers charisma+ con saves are the best combo in the game imho.

6. Even if you were correct and that's not conceded - it's such a minor difference in power that in the grand scheme it doesn't matter.

The charisma classes are just sexier as well. Tashas power creep as well (Sorcerers, Druids and Peace and Twilight domain's).

7. You say Charisma classes but list mostly Wisdom classes. I'm confused?

TLDR version. To many competing class option have access to wizard spells, more resources and switch on earlier in the game at levels that matter. A Wizards power is mostly hypothetical requiring system mastery and higher levels to achieve.

8. Underselling the wizard spell list (even for 1st-3rd level spells) along with no consideration for arcane recovery seems to make the difference.

I can't stress enough that a wizard using a crossbow in tier 1 is solid damage.
Then add in their spells - which at the height of tier 1 can be 6 1st level and 3 2nd level spell slots - coming up to more than 1 spell per encounter and in many campaigns 2-3 spells per encounter.

9. And they only get better in tier 2.

 

[Zardnaar]

1. I agree that wizards are strongeset in the least played game tiers, but they aren't weak in earlier tiers either.
2. I'm not sure how casual players play a classis the best way to compare their power.


3. A tomelock is much worse than a wizard at almost everything else.


4. No class has a better 1st and 2nd level spell loadout to prepare than a wizard.

Level 1 Spells: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Sleep, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
Level 2 Spells: Misty Step, Web, Invisibility, Suggestion, Shatter, Rime's Binding Ice, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness

Like I don't even have enough spells I can prepare to prepare all the 'best' wizard spells.



5. I have no problem with light clerics. They are strong and blasty and probably a bit blastier than most wizards. But they don't have anywhere near the control and control is normally better than blasty.


6. Even if you were correct and that's not conceded - it's such a minor difference in power that in the grand scheme it doesn't matter.


7. You say Charisma classes but list mostly Wisdom classes. I'm confused?


8. Underselling the wizard spell list (even for 1st-3rd level spells) along with no consideration for arcane recovery seems to make the difference.

I can't stress enough that a wizard using a crossbow in tier 1 is solid damage.
Then add in their spells - which at the height of tier 1 can be 6 1st level and 3 2nd level spell slots - coming up to more than 1 spell per encounter and in many campaigns 2-3 spells per encounter.

9. And they only get better in tier 2.

Arcade recovery is kinda anemic compared to sorcerers. They can spend sorcerery points or twin something in effect getting more spells than the wizard and soneth8ing unique.

Wizards can prepare a lot of spells but don't really get more spell slots except for arcane recovery. Their versatility is vastly over rated and it doesn't matter to much in real games.

 

[FrogReaver]

Arcade recovery is kinda anemic compared to sorcerers. They can spend sorcerery points or twin something in effect getting more spells than the wizard and soneth8ing unique.

I'm sorry, but what level 1 and 2 spells is the sorcerer actually twinning?

Wizards can prepare a lot of spells but don't really get more spell slots except for arcane recovery. Their versatility is vastly over rated and it doesn't matter to much in real games.

2 1st level spell slots a day when you have 6-7 slots total is fantastic! 3 1st level slots per day when you have 8-9 slots total is also fantastic. It's a huge increase in spell resources.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm sorry, but what level 1 and 2 spells is the sorcerer actually twinning?


2 1st level spell slots a day when you have 6-7 slots total is fantastic! 3 1st level slots per day when you have 8-9 slots total is also fantastic. It's a huge increase in spell resources.

Doesn't scale very well. You can quicken cantrips reasonably cheap and new tashas cleric at level 2 can also recall low level spell.

There's also that tashas feat two metamagic points and two metamagic choices. That's two more spell slots at level 2.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Everyone... make sure you also don't forget to talk about how much Drizzt sucks too! These memes won't stay alive on their own!