D&D 4E Women in 4E

[Hairfoot]

Reading the discussion through the thread, I have to agree that the chainmail bikini syndrome isn't quite as default as I believed at the outset. Thanks in particular to Klaus and Voadam for posting such extensive lists of great pics.

Getting to the thread title, though, what sort of balance do you think WotC will strike with 4E in regard to fantasy femmes? Has the art so far leaned in a direction different to previous incarnations?

Oh, and what happened to Astrid's Parlour on the Wizards boards? I visited once, soon after it opened, but I found some of the discourse too excruciating to stick around. Someone mentioned it burned in flames. Is that true?

 

[AffableVagrant]

I don't think it's fair to blame D&D and WoC for the fact that gamers are often undersexed social retards. Besides, women are always reading those trashy fashion magazines with half naked chicks in 'em with articles about nothing but sex anyway!

In fact, I'd guess most female gamers have characters sporting chainmail bikinis! Someone make a poll! Gamer chicks are every bit as escapist, so why wouldn't they want to be buxom ass-kicking Xena types, wearing stuff the player wishes she could!

Even Gloria Steinem wants to hack orcs in a chainmail bikini! Why? Because it's awesome!

Would you rather see hunky Fabio-looking dudes in thongs swatting Shadow Mastiffs?

 

[Klaus]

He was critiquing a paizo series of fantasy art pictures. Not a Pozas one.

Hey, no reason those two can't become one, eh?

 

[Cadfan]

Dr. Awesome- normally, I would agree with you, except that I've read this thread and others like it, and personally encountered people who seem to think that the preservation of fetish-wear artwork in roleplaying games is a moral cause of great importance.

 

[Cadfan]

Hairfoot- Astrids is doing alright at this point. Most of the trolls have gone away or been banned, and its actually possible for women to post a thread to talk to other women about issues involving being a woman in a traditionally male hobby, and not have it immediately overrun by guys.

 

[SteveC]

My reaction to these kinds of threads is basically "oh, here's a group that mostly consisting of men that is trying to talk about what is or isn't offensive to women."

I wasn't going to make any sort of comment until one of my coworkers, a woman who happens to be a PHD Chemist came by and saw me looking at ENWorld. She said, "OMG! You're a gamer? I suppose that makes sense..."

Anyway, she saw what I was looking at and we started to talk. It turns out she used to game when she was in college, and she told me a couple of stories about the kind of characters she used to play that made me blush.

When we got to talking seriously about the situation, she basically said that the very notion that gaming artwork is offensive to women is offensive to her, because it implies that there is a sort of monolithic "women's opinion" on what is tasteful and what isn't.

But after that, she suggested that I look at things that are marketed directly to women and said that nothing in this thread was even remotely close in tackiness to products that are made for women, and by women.

Now all that's anecdotal as all get out, but I always seem to think there's some notion that we gamers need to defend women's honor about our hobby. We don't.

Part of fantasy is objectifying people...our heroes are beautiful and powerful, and our villains are ugly and evil. Both men and women generally like it that way. I'd say it's just about that simple.

You can certainly disagree with me (and I admit that I find the old Avalanche covers to be pretty silly) but make sure that you're outraged for yourself, and not creating a sense of it based on what you think other people believe.

As always, just my $.02.

--Steve

 

[Rechan]

My reaction to these kinds of threads is basically "oh, here's a group that mostly consisting of men that is trying to talk about what is or isn't offensive to women."

Well Steve, you're welcome to go over to Astrid's Parlor on WotC's website - the Female Gamers' Forum - and ask them what they think. Women gamers themselves can tell you.

 

[Nifft]

Just so long as they don't give women the shaft.
Women should keep their niche.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rechan]

Just so long as they don't give women the shaft.
Women should keep their niche.

You, get in the corner.

 

[Reynard]

Yep. It's also why I kill the non-Lawful requirement for barbarians in 3e. Klingons are totally Lawful barbarians. IMHO.

Klingons are totally Samurai.

On topic: There isn't a form of entertainment that doesn't pander to our baser instincts. it just so happens that men and women have different baser instincts. D&D proper has always run closer to the "classy" side of cheesecake when compared to other games, romance and fantasy novels and (shiver) 80s fantasy films. there's nothing wrong with a chainmail bikini or a super hot Lidda. I have never once in real life (as in, not on an internet message board) met a woman who likes fantasy and/or gaming who has complained about D&D's art.

Quite frankly, art has been full of boobies and man-parts pretty much since cave men started using charcoal and berry juice on their walls. That the topic comes up for debate as often as it does confounds me. it is part of our nature -- always has been and always will be. It isn't demeaning or dirty or perverted -- it is one of the things that makes us, as people, what we are.

That said, individual tastes vary and if chainmail bikinis are an affront to you, fantasy in general ain't your bag. Even Harry Potter had hot French wizard chicks in short skirts.