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5E WotC Shares Theros Table of Contents

Russ Morrissey

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No to discussing RL religion.
Talking about the societal influences, no commentary on the merits of any real life religion intended. It's pretty much impossible to discuss paladins without bringing in RL religion, since the whole class is defined by a religious ideal.
 

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Talking about the societal influences, no commentary on the merits of any real life religion intended. It's pretty much impossible to discuss paladins without bringing in RL religion, since the whole class is defined by a religious ideal.
Just avoid discussing it entirely. No need to bring any influences into it.
Discussing paladins in their fantasy-only context is a lot better.
 

Just avoid discussing it entirely. No need to bring any influences into it.
Discussing paladins in their fantasy-only context is a lot better.
So, it would be inapropiate to discuss Greek influences on Theros?


Fantasy does not exist in isolation or spring from nowhere. It does not and cannot exist outside of real world influneces
 

So, it would be inapropiate to discuss Greek influences on Theros?
Where have I said this.
Whatever conclusion you want to come to is up to you.

Fantasy does not exist in isolation or spring from nowhere. It does not and cannot exist outside of real world influneces
No one is denying that.
You can still discuss influences without bringing in RL religion. In fact you can discuss Greek myth without bringing in Greek religion.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
That's because you aren't an ancient Greek. Modern ideas of what heroism is are quite different.
No, I think ancient Greeks would agree with me. When I said hero, I'm not even considering how his abilites can help others. This guy would make a great hero who charges forward to take on the enemy single-handed. He can be more durable, he enters the fray before the others charging forward to claim all the glory for themselves. He can turn the enemy's strikes against him with glorious defence and when he hits level 20 he becomes an almost unstoppable juggernaut for the encounter.

Also, I just noticed his level 20 ability can be refreshed with a 5th level spell slot. More abilities need to be like this.
 

Where have I said this.
Whatever conclusion you want to come to is up to you.


No one is denying that.
You can still discuss influences without bringing in RL religion. In fact you can discuss Greek myth without bringing in Greek religion.
No, you can't, not with any intellectual honesty. Religion both informs and reflects the way a people see the world. That includes the Ancient Greeks. The gods where a very real presence for the ancient Greeks and run all the way though their myths and legends, and that is reflected in Theros. Thus, you cannot discuss Theros without involving RL religion.

In the Greek Myths, Odysseus uses trickery to facilitate a massacre, gets all his crew killed on the voyage home, has a 10 year affair with a nymph, then when he does eventually arrive home he murders all his wife's suitors. And is judged an admirable hero.

During the proceeding war, Hector killed Patroclus, so Achilles Killed Hector (in a duel he knew he couldn't loose, and then humiliates the body afterwards), so Paris killed Achilles. And these guys are all accredited heroes acting heroicly.
 
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No, you can't, not with any intellectual honesty. Religion both informs and reflects the way a people see the world. That includes the Ancient Greeks. The gods where a very real presence for the ancient Greeks and run all the way though their myths and legends, and that is reflected in Theros. Thus, you cannot discuss Theros without involving RL religion.
We are discussing Theros. No need to bring RL religion at all into it. At all.
 




The noble knight paladin is a Christian invention, and complete anachronism in a pseudo-Greek setting. A Greek inspired paladin should reflect the Greek gods, not the Christian god. So, instead of justice, mercy and self-sacrifice they should embody arrogance, ego and petty vindictiveness.
Paladins were based off of that, but the themes of Greek Heroes and their abilities fit the 5e paladin better than any other class, IMO. The 5e Paladin has many abilities that "Christian Paladins" didn't. Christian Paladins were basically just knights, they didn't have magic and spells, wings, and so on. To say that they did have those in Catholic History would be blasphemous.

(I'm not talking about religion, I'm discussing the root of paladins.)

Greek Heroes, on the other hand, had great strength, supernatural powers, amazing senses, and many other abilities that fit the paladin better than any other class. They can smite evil-doers, kill monsters from the "Pit" (Tartarus/Abyss), heal others, do miracles, and so on. Greek Heroes fit the 5e Paladin better than any other class, and IMHO, better than Catholic Paladins do.
 


Paladins were based off of that, but the themes of Greek Heroes and their abilities fit the 5e paladin better than any other class, IMO. The 5e Paladin has many abilities that "Christian Paladins" didn't. Christian Paladins were basically just knights, they didn't have magic and spells, wings, and so on. To say that they did have those in Catholic History would be blasphemous.

(I'm not talking about religion, I'm discussing the root of paladins.)

Greek Heroes, on the other hand, had great strength, supernatural powers, amazing senses, and many other abilities that fit the paladin better than any other class. They can smite evil-doers, kill monsters from the "Pit" (Tartarus/Abyss), heal others, do miracles, and so on. Greek Heroes fit the 5e Paladin better than any other class, and IMHO, better than Catholic Paladins do.

I was going to say something similar. Previous edition paladins might have retained some of the old Christian Paladin roots, but 5e has completely divorced the paladin class from that. Heck, you can easily have chaotic and/or evil paladins now, which is a complete anathema to the old paradigm! All you need now is a warrior-type with a strong ideal to follow, which would work well for some ancient Greek heroes, even the arrogant, petty, and vindictive ones (Oath of Conquest, anyone?). Plato himself would have approved of a group of warriors in service to an Idea - that's very reminiscent of The Republic and other writings of his.
 

I was going to say something similar. Previous edition paladins might have retained some of the old Christian Paladin roots, but 5e has completely divorced the paladin class from that. Heck, you can easily have chaotic and/or evil paladins now, which is a complete anathema to the old paradigm! All you need now is a warrior-type with a strong ideal to follow, which would work well for some ancient Greek heroes, even the arrogant, petty, and vindictive ones (Oath of Conquest, anyone?). Plato himself would have approved of a group of warriors in service to an Idea - that's very reminiscent of The Republic and other writings of his.
Paladins, in name and original theme, came from Catholicism. They are very different now.
 

Paladins were based off of that, but the themes of Greek Heroes and their abilities fit the 5e paladin better than any other class, IMO. The 5e Paladin has many abilities that "Christian Paladins" didn't. Christian Paladins were basically just knights, they didn't have magic and spells, wings, and so on. To say that they did have those in Catholic History would be blasphemous.

(I'm not talking about religion, I'm discussing the root of paladins.)

Greek Heroes, on the other hand, had great strength, supernatural powers, amazing senses, and many other abilities that fit the paladin better than any other class. They can smite evil-doers, kill monsters from the "Pit" (Tartarus/Abyss), heal others, do miracles, and so on. Greek Heroes fit the 5e Paladin better than any other class, and IMHO, better than Catholic Paladins do.
I agree, the D&D paladin has evolved a long way from it's roots, and it is one of the great triumphs of 5e to take the concept in wildly different directions with the addition of Ancients and Vengeance (and later Conquest). And any of these are a good fit for a Greek-themed hero.

Which is why it's such a shame, when Oath of Heroism had the potential to be something different again, for it to backslide into a dull generic blob that feels less Greek than things that are already in the PHB.

A slight digression, but the Zealot Barbarian could be refluffed into a good Greek-style hero. I especially like it's "easy to resurrect" aspect for this theme.
 


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