Would you die for D&D? For EN World? Alignment and groups.

Philosopher

First Post
(I'm reposting this from The Piazza.)

I read an interesting article today, called "Would you give you life for your group?", which reports on preliminary research on the psychology of group loyalty and what might make people become willing to sacrifice their lives. Basically, researchers found that certain people are "fused" to (or identify with) certain groups, and that they are thereby willing to make sacrifices for those groups, but not others. No, I do not find this surprising - what interested me was that they're beginning to investigate the details and the underlying psychology. In any case, the second thing that occurred to me as I read the article is an application to D&D.

Despite the title of this thread, I'm not really wondering if gamers would sacrifice their lives for the game. Rather, I have a suggested change/addition to the alignment system. (Yay, another alignment thread!) Let's take Jasper Blueberry, a character I once played. Jasper was a pyromaniacal evoker and a halfling supremacist. Because he was a racist and had a theory to "justify" his racism, I started off playing him as Lawful Evil, which I felt fit this style of racism best. He enjoyed setting non-halflings on fire (very evil in that regard), but never would have harmed a halfling. In fact, he was even willing to make sacrifices for halfling communities. If you only ever saw him interacting with halflings, you might have even judged him to be Lawful Good.

What occurred to me is that maybe it could make sense for an individual character to have several alignments, each of which describes how the character behaves with respect to certain in-groups and out-groups. For example, Jasper would be Lawful Good with halflings, and Lawful Evil with non-halflings. You can imagine a person who is Neutral Good towards the people in her village (willing to go out of her way to help them), and merely Neutral to outsiders (nothing against them, might be friendly enough, but wouldn't take risks for a stranger). A thieves' guild could be Lawful Neutral with respect to its members (they are all expected to follow the rules and will be treated impartially), and Chaotic Evil with respect to the rest of the city (disregarding their laws and their well-being). A barbarian might be Lawful Good within his tribe (he honours the traditions), but Chaotic Neutral when among civilized folk (he does not follow their mores or standards of decency). An individual dwarf might be Lawful Good towards fellow dwarves (always performing her duty for the good of the clan), Neutral towards elves (tolerating them, although not overly fond of them), and Chaotic Evil towards orcs (attacking them on sight, refusing to negotiate).

If alignment is a useful guideline in figuring out how an individual will act towards others, and since people don't always act the same way towards all groups of people, this could be a useful short-hand for summarizing, say, an NPC's expected behaviour.

Thoughts?
 

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It is an interesting idea because, in the end, people can act very different towards different groups.

I ran a game where I had Alignment as somewhat similar - it was a setting focused around a human Empire as pretty much the total of civilization, so I didn't really have to worry about different behaviors towards different groups. The Good and Evil axis measured how far one was willing to go to protect whomever one cared about; while the Law and Chaos axis measured whether one cared about society as a whole or just one's self.

Here's the breakdown I sent out to the players to try and represent this:


Lawful Good: Champion: A cornerstone of the Empire, who works for the good of all.
Lawful Neutral: Arbiter: A strict believer in the ways of the Empire, who approaches each situation as the law demands.
Lawful Evil: Enforcer: Those who enact the Empire's will, who do what it takes to preserve society against all threats.
Neutral Good: Idealist: A believer in good deeds, who seeks to do right for those around them.
True Neutral: Contemplative: One who considers all sides before taking action, and makes decisions as appropriate to whatever situation lies before them.
Neutral Evil: Realist: One who does whatever it takes to protect or advance those close to them.
Chaotic Good: Vigilante: A rebel that nonetheless seeks to right wrongs when they see them being done, a wanderer whose stock in trade is random acts of kindness.
Chaotic Neutral: Loner: One who isolates themself from the world and who deals with each situation as they personally think is right. Chaotic Evil: Survivor: One who puts their own safety or success above all others.

In addition, I had a 'Corruption Score' to represent true evil, whether genuinely disturbed madness or those tainted by dark powers.
 

What occurred to me is that maybe it could make sense for an individual character to have several alignments, each of which describes how the character behaves with respect to certain in-groups and out-groups.
Sounds like you're on your way to re-inventing Allegiances from d20 Modern.

To your other point, that Alignment doesn't work very well: I agree.

Cheers, -- N
 






Wasn't there an alignment-replacement option back in d20 modern that did things this way? Instead of choosing one of the 9 D&D alignments, you chose a number of alliegances to various groups and/or ideals. So a paladin might have alliegances to the ideal of Good, the land of Fantasykingdomia, the Shinysword paladin order, and his love interest Lady Yvette le Cleavage. I'm not sure of the details of how it actually worked, how mechanically heavy it was and whether you had to prioritise your alliegances in case they came in conflict, but the system might be worth a look if you're interested in this kind of thing.
 

My personal method of choice is to use alignment as a guidepost and allow all possible actions under the sun everything from extreme philanthropy to genocide to all alignments if the conditions allow for the methods to be used.

If you must factor in where someone random is on the "how does an NPC feel about X" just roll percentile or whatever scale you'd prefer if you don't have a pre-ordained answer.

Ex. Lets see how this merchant likes dwarves.. on a scale of 1-100 with low being enmity.. hmmm I roll a 83 - To me this means the interaction is positive overall and because he's Chaotic Good, he'll be inclined to help him insofar as whatever happens doesn't put his freedom or livelihood at risk.

Ex2. Random human walks up to a LG pally and I roll a 01. This Pally really doesn't like the random human and if that human grows up to be a borderline despot.. he may be killed outright by the Paladin provided the circumstances merit it.. now if the Pally rolled a 00 for that same person, there may be some attempt at reconciliation there.

Alignments are guideposts, not absolutes.

The side benefit to this approach is if you do it diligently and perhaps as a relationship map when developing an area, you can come up with some pretty interesting plot ideas and be better prepared for when outsiders come to town.. (Hmmm. The Farmer is digging his wife and his neighbor's daughter.. he's also decent friends with the tavernkeep but really doesn't like the altarboy though he regularly supports the local priest.. etc. etc.. then add alignment. BOOM.
 

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