WoW and 4e - where's the beef?

[Hunter In Darkness]

Despite my dislike of 4Ed, I have to agree with this- the game's limitations are mechanical, not imaginative.

Well sometimes that leads to the issue. If you feel boxed in or "punished" for doing anything other then attacking in some groups that is a problem.

Not all groups but ,there ya go

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

to the designers sometimes sounding as if they worked in Redmond instead of Renton and were replacing obsolete technology (which makes the obsolete "hardware" you and me, brother

Terrible analogy, I am afraid.
You are not hardware. Hardware would be the dice, the pens, the paper, the miniatures, the game table.

When M$ is bringing out a new Windows or Office, they are not intending to replace or outdate the users. But the hardware the software runs on might be outdated.

Players and DMs are customers or users.

In that terms, I think 4E has tried to improve in the usability area*. Clean layout, rules that fit on cards, easier ways to create an adventure (less work with building encounters or monsters.) Maybe that is also videogamey, since most video-gamesthese days - certainly World of Warcraft - seem to aim for a user-friendly interface, instead of creating a "fake" difficulty in playing the game by a broken interface.


*) So did 3E in many areas. Replacing THAC0 and multiple, incompatible subsystems to determine success and replacing it with a unified d20 mechanic. Streamlining saves. Treating all ability scores the same. The CR system. And probably much more only someone that actually played AD&D or OD&D might recognize.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well sometimes that leads to the issue. If you feel boxed in or "punished" for doing anything other then attacking in some groups that is a problem.

Not all groups but ,there ya go

Besides the way 4Ed dictates the way a battle should flow or be fought, I dislike the alignment and multiclassing systems- they don't mesh well with my D&D PC design preferences. And other stuff besides.

But I've discussed that ad nauseam in other threads- none of that is the point of this thread, which is about 4Ed's relation to videogames in general and WoW in particular.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

You are right at that...nothing to see here move along

 

[Dice4Hire]

Points of Light is supposed to make it easier for DMs to get started quickly, particularly beginners. The core rules of D&D should not be putting barriers in the way of new DMs. They shouldn't be suggesting a DM has to create a world before they can start running D&D.

If someone wants a bigger world then there's plenty of setting books and fantasy fiction available for inspiration.

Start the playing, yes, start the roleplaying, no. 4E definitely pushes Roll over Role as the first thing a new player experiences in the game.

 

[Dice4Hire]

You never visited the CharOp boards in the 3e days, I take it. "Best build" is a concept that goes hand-in-hand with a multitude of build options. There was a lot of the same attitude in the 3e days, and probably in the Skills & Powers era as well (although it wouldn't have been as visible, if it existed, since internet access wasn't as common as it is now). It certainly exists even in older D&D, it's just a lot simpler because of the lack of character customization options. Frex, "best 1e paladin build": get a holy avenger, magic (field) plate armor, a girdle of storm giant strength, and something that lets you fly.

Actually, I did quite a bit, but did not mention it as the discussion is on 4E, not 3E.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Despite my dislike of 4Ed, I have to agree with this- the game's limitations are mechanical, not imaginative.

Which was my point, Mircoles. However, I don't see it as a limitation as Danny does. I am observing.

 

[Dice4Hire]

If you need a rule set to tell you how to Rp, then your in the wrong hobby.
There is as much potential for Rp in 4e as there ever was in any past edition. It basically comes down to the effort the Dm and players want to put into it.
Rules for Rp were never needed and anyone can figure out how to do it.
Especially since they likely did quite a lot of it as a child when they were playing pretend.

I'll assume the 'you' above is gamers, and not me personally, but it is really hard to tell.

I would tend not to agree with the above statement. I think you can RPG with nothing but a buddy sitting somewhere in the world connected to you by any of the myriad communication devices available. But learning to roleplay is a bit more complicated than just chatting or whatever. There are a lot of shared expectations and experience that help drive the roleplaying. If I go with Tolkein elves, and you go with hackmaster elves, it is gonna be pretty hard to roleplay, don't you think?

But to say again, I am talking about new D&D players new to RPGs. Whether from video game backgrounds or not.

 

[wedgeski]

But to say again, I am talking about new D&D players new to RPGs. Whether from video game backgrounds or not.

If you're saying that 4E represents a roleplaying-unfriendly introduction to the table-top game, then I have to say that my experience speaks to the contrary. I've seen two brand new players take to roleplaying like ducks to water under 4E. There's tons of advice in the PHB, plenty enough to get someone to the table with at least some vague idea of what they can expect when they get there.

The kind of distinctions you're talking about -- the difference, for example, in how to roleplay the concept of an "elf" based on two differing game systems -- are light-years from the concerns that someone brand new to the hobby brings with them to the table... concerns like "how do I not suck?" and "how do I not make a fool of myself?" and "I hope the DM doesn't ask me anything in character this week!".

 

[Rechan]

To me, I guess saying "I'm glad there's no fluff, so I can make my own, just how I like it." is tantamount to saying "I'm glad there's no rules, so I can make my own, just how I like it."

The difference is that fluff is easy to make. Rules that work are hard to make. Especially a whole system that is interlocked and functions smoothly.