D&D 5E Zone spells and amazing damage potential

[Sacrosanct]

But if I played Adventure League games, you bet I would be a halfling with spiritual guardians who lets his allies push him around in a wheelbarrow all night long.

And as an AL DM, I would tell you the same thing I just got done saying. It wouldn't work like you think it does because none of the "targets" actually moved into the area or started their turn there.

 

[evilbob]

In reply to the OP: yup. I just had this discussion with a player who is now a level 3 druid. Moonbeam, Cloud of Daggers, Blade Barrier, Spirit Guardians - there are tons of spells that say "when a creature enters the spells area on a turn or starts its turn there" damage happens. Think about it like this: you'd rule that someone that got pushed into a Cloud of Daggers got hit by the effect, right? Or into a Blade Barrier, right? Well the only difference is that with Moonbeam and Spirit Guardians, the spell's area moves, not the creature. Otherwise it's the same, and works the same. Ditto that if they then also start their turn there, they get hit a second time.

To be fair, Moonbeam is a horrible spell otherwise, because it takes your action to move it - by contrast Flaming Sphere is only a bonus action to move around each turn. It's also only a 5' "area" (although technically, yes, it's tall) so the real issue is the 60' of movement you can make each round: that's probably enough to hit everything at least once, and anything you leave it on will get hit a second time when they start their turn.

Spirit Guardians, on the other hand, is probably broken. The 15' radius is HUGE, and it's pretty easy to get anything near you to start their turn in it - and they can only move for half to escape, so most things would have to Dash just to get away from you in one turn. And that's all true regardless of how you interpret this issue. The fact that you can do whatever else you want on your turn while you go around the battlefield and make sure everything is touched at least once is over the top, but this spell is already a damage machine. It's doing close to 1/2 Fireball-level damage every turn for 10 minutes to everything within 15' of the cleric (or bard who snaked this spell), or nearly Fireball damage to anything you run up to (since they get hit twice) if you interpret the ruling the way it's written. The problem here is the spell itself, not the interpretation.

 

[Tormyr]

To be fair, Moonbeam is a horrible spell otherwise, because it takes your action to move it - by contrast Flaming Sphere is only a bonus action to move around each turn. It's also only a 5' "area" (although technically, yes, it's tall) so the real issue is the 60' of movement you can make each round: that's probably enough to hit everything at least once, and anything you leave it on will get hit a second time when they start their turn.

There is a time when you want moonbeam. Interrogation of suspected doppledgangers. "Now don't worry, this will only hurt a little bit..."

 

[Paraxis]

And as an AL DM, I would tell you the same thing I just got done saying. It wouldn't work like you think it does because none of the "targets" actually moved into the area or started their turn there.

And then being the rules lawyer I am I would show you Mr. Crawfords sage advice posts that I linked in the first post.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I wonder if it's ever dawned on you how hilariously ironic your sig is.

and do you mean these links, where he said: "That's definitely your prerogative as a DM, especially because you know the likelihood of your players to abuse something."

So you can show me that link, thinking you're trying to rules lawyer me, and I would simply point to your own citation to say, "It appears your own source material states that I can make this ruling, especially since you're tying to abuse something."

 

[Jester David]

Jeremy Crawford just clarified that entering a zone doesn't have to be voluntary or use the creatures movement or actions. So running around the battlefield taking the Disengage action with Spirit Guardians up or use Moonbeam and sweep across the map hitting all the enemies each tun, are valid uses of the spells. I had always ruled that 'entering' had to be done on the target creatures turn not on the casters.

Relevant links, http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/03/16/spirit-guardian/ and http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/03/16/enter-area-of-effect/.

So imagine a halfling cleric in a wheelbarrow with Spirit Guardians up being pushed around by his team member on each of their turns while they take the Disengage action avoiding all attacks of opportunity.

Moonbeam doesn't say it deals damage when it moves, so I wouldn't rule that it leaves a path of scorched earth behind it. Otherwise you'd constantly have to find a path between areas that were not intersected by a friendly creature, which makes the spell less useful. And, obviously, it's damage potential would be broken. Handy spell. 2d10 damage (save for half) to most enemies is good. But it only works once, and then the creature has to start its turn in the zone.

Spirit guardians has more damage potential, since you can render creatures unaffected and so it makes more sense for it to be active while moving. Still, a 15-foot radius around you is limited, and your ability to get to places will be limited by terrain and positioning. So you might end up doing 3d8 damage (save for half) to a couple enemies every other round. But you're also burning your action AND your concentration, which could be used to cast other spells. And you're vulnerable to readied actions. Plus, you have to get right up close to your enemies, so they can just walk up and hit you. And you might be away from your allies, reducing your effectiveness as a healer.
It's good, but at 12 damage (save for 6) the fighter can match that against one or two targets. It's a good minion sweeper though.

 

[Uller]

Okay...thinking about this more, I have to agree it really doesn't make a lot of sense (I admit...I tend to play devil's advocate when a whole bunch of people are agreeing on something). What really kills it for me is not the aarakokra (PCs with innate flying abilities are a problem all their own) or the halfling wheelbarrow trick (you cannot dash or disengage while pushing a wheelbarrow...that's an action. In fact, since you are using both your hands, you will not only provoke OAs, all attacks against you will be with advantage and all dex saves will be at disadvantage...so go for it...)

It's the fact that a target that is kiting the caster will take more damage than one that is just standing toe to toe with him. That's just dumb.

So I looked around for some other published material to see if I could find something similar. I'm thinking these "zone" spells are really just battlefield hazards like a bonfire or a pool of acid or a cloud of poison gas. How would those things be handled?

Two things I found are Green Slime in the DMG and the fire in area 8 of Cragmaw Cave. Green slime works identically to these spells. The first time you contact it you take damage then take more damage at the _start_ of your turn until you break contact. To me that's dumb. You take damage twice before you have a chance to do something and if you break contact and re-establish it you take more damage than if you just remained in contact. The fire in Cragmaw Cave does 1 point of damage if you contact it, 1d6 if you fall prone in it and can only damage you once per round.

So here is how I'm going to handle these spells in my games:

When you first make contact you take damage. To me, this is important. These are concentration spells. Having a chance that the spell could be forcibly ended before it does anything is too much of a nerf for me to accept. When my players (or even one of my NPCs/Monsters) uses one of these spells, it's a significant resource and something cool should happen.

You cannot take damage more than once per turn. You also cannot take damage more than once per round and this resets at the end of your turn. If you are still in the area, you take damage immediately. So if on your turn you move into the area, you take damage, but you don't take it again at the end of your turn. (convoluted way of saying I don't want a character taking double damage on his turn)

This way the spell is guaranteed to do something interesting on the turn it is cast. It's not going to leave a pack of weak creatures in place to take OAs until it gets to their turn...but it will only do "double" damage if the target somehow ends its turn in the area.

I know that is a bit more complex than what the designers were going for. I'm all for simplicity. But I have some encounters coming up where these kind of spells are going to be used on the party and it could be quite deadly. If I were a player, I'd feel pretty p***ed if the DM says "The wizard casts Cloud Kill, take 5d8 poision damage. Now it's your turn...take 5d8 more...and now you're dead."

Does that seem reasonable to folks? Am I missing something?

I still don't really have a problem with moving the zones and doing the damage or pushing characters into the zones. Of all of these spells, moonbeam seems like the biggest offender when it comes to moving it (and I really do think it's overpowered to boot) and fortunately we don't have any characters in our game that can cast it...so it's just not an issue.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

In all fairness Crawfords rulings are the strict interpretation of RAW, that is his role on sage advice. As written it seems "entering" is anytime the area of effect moves into a creatures area or when a creature moves into the area itself, I can see that. I do think it is overpowered and subject to abuse. My hope is that we will see a fix in the first errata document.

But 5e already has a built-in fix. It's called DM adjudication. Is it really that hard to grasp? Really?

If a player just blurts out the word "Disengage", that does not, in any way, shape or form, equate to "instant immunity to any bad guys". IMO, the PC's actions decide what 'combat action' is going to get used...not the other way around. A PC can't just say "I move 10', tackle the bad guy over the edge of the cliff and wait for my feather fall spell to kick in. Oh, I'm using the Disengage combat action to do this, so he doesn't get a chance to stab me, push me, trip me, or grab me". That's not how the rules are supposed to work. And any DM that simply rolls over to this kind of cr@p should have his DM licence revoked.

If you also read all his tweets on it (the links you posted), you will see he mentions "abuse of..." multiple times. This pretty much states "don't let anyone abuse it in your game". If you think a halfling in a wheelbarrow, being pushed around a battlefield, inflicting massive damage with absolutely no drawback to him or the people pushing simply because they say "No, we're Disengaging", is "cool"... then enjoy your game.

EDIT: **snip** Sorry Praxis. When I reread what I wrote, it was definilty grounds for me getting a temporary ban. So I'm just going to put you on Ignore for now. Sorry!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Saeviomagy]

The thing is, there's a ruling on this that sticks more closely to what is actually written and does not allow people to even start thinking about these exploits.

Saying "oh, use the ruling that is more abusive unless people are actually abusing things, at which point make something up" is plain silly when a sensible rule already exists.

 

[PnPgamer]

Not exactly a bag of rats, but with this ruling it is an exploit.

I ruled on this when it first came up in the game and will stand by my ruling at the table, which is the "enters" part needs to be done with an action, movement, or reaction of the target pretty much just like an attack of opportunity being triggered.

But if I played Adventure League games, you bet I would be a halfling with spiritual guardians who lets his allies push him around in a wheelbarrow all night long.

So in your games, using shove to force enter doesnt trigger spell damage?