Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I quite liked that one, I think its the accent and "that is interesting lets follow it up- oh wait".

I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.

Some criticism are nuanced, yes. But there's an awful lot that circle around to Rey being a Mary Sue and holding her to a standard that they don't for either Luke or Anakin. That's where this boils down to sexism.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/

Surely the difference must be in the films, yes? The original trilogy is brilliance and the new one is the worst! It's clear because someone said it on the internet!!!

It has nothing to do with the fact that most of the people in question formed their opinion of the original trilogy when they were children, and now they're applying adult level criticism to the new movies. No....that can't be it at all!
 

Mallus

Legend
I have mixed feeling about this.

On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
 

Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.

*Shrug* I have spoken with many, many people, all of whom liked the movie despite the reasons in the above rant. None of whom had a problem with Rey.
 

I have mixed feeling about this.

On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...

Personally I liked TFA a lot more than TLJ, and I am by no means a JJ Abrams fan. Undoing some of the mistakes that were made in TLJ (and I know this is a point of disagreement) could do a lot to make me like the last Star Wars film of this trilogy. I'm cautiously optimistic that JJ Abrams will at least close the trilogy with a some what coherent story that feels like Star Wars, and will not make me hate the characters like TLJ did.
 



Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Turns out there were more posts about TLJ than about the new trailer. 48 about TLJ and 32 about TROS. A most effective thread hijack, if ever I saw one.
 


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